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brunoborges 13 hours ago [-]
Infantino clearly wants to see FIFA making billions so he and many others can pocket millions legally. But the only way for this to happen in a non-corrupt way, given that FIFA is non-profit and therefore requires a lot of questionable operations, is to turn FIFA into a business like NFL / MLS.
The problem with that is that it then it is no longer a sport, rather a... business.
UEFA letter is spot on.
madradavid 12 hours ago [-]
CONCACAF join UEFA and reject FIFA's World Cup sell-off plan. https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/49488584/uefa-boycott... . By the end of this Gianni Infantino will only be left with the Africans .I am African and these Federations will do anything to keep him around because of the unprecedented amounts of corruption...
I actually think the CONCACAF statement shows that they could be on board… they’re just mad they weren’t consulted. Give them the cut they want and they might change their tune.
By comparison UEFA sounds a lot stronger.
skywhopper 11 hours ago [-]
This statement is weak and wishy-washy compared to the blunt UEFA statement. Kudos to Europe. Here’s hoping CONCACAF can get brave enough to take the moral stance as well.
10 hours ago [-]
dataengineer56 1 hours ago [-]
CONCACAF and UEFA almost always vote together, but they are far outnumbered by every other region and FIFA only needs a majority vote for a rule to pass. You're excluding about half of the planet by only mentioning Africa.
illliillll 16 minutes ago [-]
FIFA can't really exist in any way similar to it's current form without UEFA
> You're excluding about half of the planet by only mentioning Africa.
It's the half of the planet that nobody cares about when it comes to football.
conradfr 12 hours ago [-]
While the football business is horrible it's nice that this may fail like the Super League.
Now if only that could put a dent in Infantino reelection...
runarberg 11 hours ago [-]
I am not sure a replacement for Infantino is enough. It seems like FIFA has a culture of corruption and Infantino is merely the latest manifestation of said culture. Some serious reform and restructuring seem needed.
jamesblonde 11 hours ago [-]
Fifa is a reflection of the world. All members (nations) get a vote. Most countries are corrupt. Thank go there is still a bastion of democracy/fairness left in Uefa.
plufz 10 hours ago [-]
Still there are plenty of world wide organizations that are less corrupt than fifa.
tialaramex 9 hours ago [-]
I'm actually not even sure I can think of an organisation more corrupt. Maybe the IOC is up there?
basisword 1 hours ago [-]
The FIA (motorsport governing body) is giving them a run for their money. Recently removed presidency term limits and made several other rule changes to prevent challengers. And like FIFA, despite the majority opinion seeming to be against the corruption the decisions get rubber stamped anyway.
runarberg 11 hours ago [-]
I am all in favor of a global revolution to overthrow capitalism with a solidarity of workers of the world. But I think we can have a non-corrupt FIFA without one.
retr0rocket 10 hours ago [-]
[dead]
darepublic 9 hours ago [-]
The world is a reflection of the laws of physics. When complex self propagating systems coexist in an environment with limited material competition arises, and corruption is simply one inevitable result of that.
LanceH 4 hours ago [-]
> Thank go there is still a bastion of democracy/fairness left in Uefa
To be a bit cynical on this, I'm going to say that UEFA is worried the international scene will infringe on the European league scene.
They've found something to be outraged about, but the reality is more about the threat to their own bottom line than it is about the international game.
mcmcmc 9 hours ago [-]
Here’s a solution: bar FIFA from selling viewing rights to their competitions and allow any station or channel to stream for free. That would grow the global game.
Take away the money and FIFA doesn’t have much to bargain with. They need to remember they are a purely administrative organization.
bdangubic 6 hours ago [-]
> That would grow the global game.
The game is already as global as it gets, 1.5bn people watched the wc final…
jurgenburgen 43 minutes ago [-]
So a minority of the human population?
illliillll 11 minutes ago [-]
Now consider time zones.
zimpenfish 11 hours ago [-]
> It seems like FIFA has a culture of corruption
I think any large multi-national organisation that deals with handing out events that generate vast sums of money inevitably succumbs to the rot.
See also: the IOC.
FabHK 4 hours ago [-]
Reminiscent of the resource curse, the observation that many countries "blessed" with an abundance of natural resources actually fare pretty badly (including lots of corruption).
The Super League was a wonderful idea! Imagine watching the best teams in Europe playing each other multiple nights a week for months on end! Instead you’d rather watch 1 or 2 teams spend 10x more than anyone else and dominate the league every season. How is that fun or exciting? Would you rather watch a Bayern v Bremen match or a Bayern v Chelsea match? Or PSG, is it fun watching them not even bother playing their best guys in games against Lyon?
It makes no sense to me that people favored the (much) worse product because “tradition”.
crote 7 hours ago [-]
Easy: it was going to be a (mostly) closed competition.
Competition gets boring real fast when it is always the same handful of teams. When there are no real consequences to losing, winning becomes meaningless.
Bayern v Chelsea matches stop being as interesting when every game is a Bayern v Chelsea match and most of them have no real impact either way. On the other hand, football becomes most interesting when it's a Bayern v Bremen and Bremen wins. People love an underdog after all, and nothing is more exciting than seeing an elite team take the game for granted and being punished for it.
The Super League is only a more interesting product from the "big name play ball" perspective. It is great when you want to make a fortune in tv rights and licensing, but it sucks for everyone who cares about football as a sport.
bluedevil2k 5 hours ago [-]
That’s the same justification my German friend made. I guess it’s American viewpoint vs European. The Super League would have been like the NFL in the US, where every team can beat any other any given night. That’s much more appealing to me, but to each their own.
dpark 4 hours ago [-]
The NFL is so balanced not because it’s a “super” league but because every team has the same salary cap. The best team and the worst team all have to spend essentially the exact same amount of money on their players, ensuring that no team can buy their way to the top.
Even there it’s still not really true that the best team can lose to the worst team in any given night. The best team is generally favored a lot and justifiably so. In soccer teams can also be quite mismatched and a lucky goal by the worse team can be the only score and win the match.
basisword 1 hours ago [-]
Another large part is the draft. Worst team gets first pick goes a long way to levelling the playing field.
vasco 2 hours ago [-]
The NFL is an association of billionaires that captured a sport and created rules to keep scarcity going and not let either of them ruin it for the others. In football we already have oil magnates buying individual clubs here and there, but at least they are very diluted among the real clubs.
m4tthumphrey 1 hours ago [-]
Putting all of the ethical issues aside, do you know how fucking boring this would be?
vagrantJin 8 hours ago [-]
My own frustration isn't corruption per se, a state cannot exist without it - at least not for long, but how cheap African corruption is in general. Others may require considerable resources and billions perhaps. Not here. Just a few Land Rover discoverys for key officials and a scholarship for their kids in Europe is all that is required to sell a whole state. To say nothing of a sporting organization.
ornornor 2 hours ago [-]
That’s not Africa only. When a corruption scandal comes up (bribing, lobbying), I’m often surprised at how cheap it was to buy the official. It’s often in the 10–50k eur region.
jurgenburgen 41 minutes ago [-]
The average person is remarkably bad with money. It should not surprise us that politicians are no exception.
10000truths 5 hours ago [-]
It's not cheap to them. You have to adjust for purchasing power - the US dollar goes a lot farther in most African countries than it does in the US. That Land Rover, if sold on the open market, could yield enough for a Nigerian live the rest of their life in Lagos without having to work. An equivalent-purchasing-power bribe in the US would be on the order of several million USD.
fifilura 7 hours ago [-]
What do you mean that "a state cannot exist without [corruption]"?
doomboiardee 6 hours ago [-]
Assuming they meant it as in it's unavoidable.
We should still be frustrated by it, but I think I get what they were getting at.
sizzzzlerz 9 hours ago [-]
However, all all-Africa World Cup won't find too many takers.
pirates 9 hours ago [-]
AFCON is already a thing and while it is decently popular it’s no where near the world cup or the euros. Part of that is that it takes place during the domestic club competitions though.
nephihaha 9 hours ago [-]
African teams are definitely up and coming. South Africa was surprisingly poor in the tournament but there were some decent performances by African teams, notably Morocco. Cape Verde also punched (or kicked?) way above their weight.
freely0085 6 hours ago [-]
CONCACAF extremely weak. They didn't even say they'll boycott. They're likely just as corrupt as the other countries and may still vote it through, they're just sad they were not consulted.
aucisson_masque 2 hours ago [-]
Honestly no one care about United States, Canada and Mexico in soccer. These countries are irrelevant.
sien 58 minutes ago [-]
I'm not an American but FIFA certainly care about the US and Mexico.
The US is a vast market. It's played a lot in the US as well. The MLS also not a tiny league. Football is also huge in Mexico.
Hugo Sanchez was truly a legend. Among many.
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
Mexico are decent
JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago [-]
They’re massively relevant when it comes to sponsorship. The U.S. alone represents like 40% of global discretionary income and ad spend.
JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago [-]
“The effort is being bankrolled by Joshua Kushner, the brother of Jared Kushner, U.S. President Donald Trump's son-in-law.”
Ah. This boondoggle makes sense now.
worik 11 hours ago [-]
> unprecedented amounts of corruption...
Yes I hear about that a lot. Yuk
But I also hear that FIFA puts a lot of resources into developing the game in African countries.
I am asking: Is that true in your experience?
ifwinterco 10 hours ago [-]
And strangely a very high percentage of those resources get converted into mansions and yachts
ethbr1 9 hours ago [-]
Nobody specified what game.
Fnoord 6 hours ago [-]
Look, it is pretty bullshit if you ask me.
So it used to be that there were pre-tournament games, to qualify.
A lot of countries... they wouldn't qualify. They'd play an ample amount of pre-tournament games though.
Now, you seen more countries qualify, and you see countries who used to not qualify, dropping ASAP (in the deathmatch 16th matches, right after poule).
So what did we get out of that? A few matches during the tournament, and they were quite frankly meaningless.
These countries which made it to deathmatch 1/16th gained nothing. It is a scam, a trick. They think they gained fame, but they really have not, since the barrier to get to the deathmatch has been lowered.
Furthermore, if you follow a corrupt scheme, you can ensure a country like Argentina is going to have the least chance to end up with strong opponents.
No, mr. Infantino. We need less corruption in FIFA, not more.
* We don't want a drink break to watch commercials..
* ..or a 30 min break with a bunch of actors (who sing with autotune) when your own rules say it may only be a 15 min break.
* We don't want red cards commutated or revoked.
* We don't want star players not getting yellow or red card, when other players are getting one for the same foul.
* We don't want a yellow card being reversed, then given to an opponent, based on 'identity mismatch'.
* We don't want to see racism or political statements.
* We don't want to see rugby, we want to see football.
* We want to see fair-play, with a meaningful VAR which can be called by the captain or coach of each team twice (getting back their call if agreed on).
You don't need a for-profit in your chain to fix the above. You need a non-profit with a non-corrupt chair, and you've proven you're not fit. Red card for you, mr. Infantino. You're out, arrivederci.
dpark 4 hours ago [-]
> Now, you seen more countries qualify, and you see countries who used to not qualify, dropping ASAP (in the deathmatch 16th matches, right after poule).
> So what did we get out of that? A few matches during the tournament, and they were quite frankly meaningless.
The answer for FIFA is of course money. More countries, more games, more money.
But the non-cynical answer is that all of those countries got to see their teams play 3 World Cup games. Some got to see more than that. I would bet that many of those countries’ citizens are very happy with the expanded tournament, and good for them. We also got Cape Verde this year, who many people around the world were excited for.
opinologo 5 hours ago [-]
>>* We want to see fair-play, with a meaningful VAR which can be called by the captain or coach of each team twice (getting back their call if agreed on).
I am not sure what your problem with Argentina is, but with a meaningful VAR, Cucurella would have been sent off and Enzo Fernandez would have stayed on the pitch. I am sick of the anti-Argentina racist campaign. Just follow the amount of yellow and red cards they were given in their last three games in the WC.
dpark 4 hours ago [-]
Fernandez deserved each of his yellow cards. Especially the second for that reckless and dangerous tackle.
Cucurella did not violate the rule. He touched his mouth for an instant. The rule is not “if you ever touch your mouth you get ejected”, which is why VAR didn’t do anything and neither did the ref on the field.
I generally have nothing against Argentina but they were wildly outplayed in the last game, they were disrespectful, and Messi’s appeal to the ref to try to get Cucurella ejected was shameful.
Thlom 38 minutes ago [-]
It's not illegal to cover your mouth. It's only illegal in "heated exchanges".
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
Argentina’s post match antics should be enough to ban them for 5 years
vasco 2 hours ago [-]
Funny racism that doesn't like Argentina but loved Cape Verde.
wood_spirit 11 hours ago [-]
Both can be - and seem to be - true.
skywhopper 11 hours ago [-]
Who told you that? FIFA?
notahacker 11 hours ago [-]
It's already an entity that makes billions that's run as a business even though it's nominally one of the few parts of the sport that isn't for profit, and it's not like they really need private equity to help them put ticket prices up, as the last World Cup showed.
Regardless of rhetoric about "not to be sold", the bigger issue is that this looks like a very bad financial arrangement for a sport that is awash with funds already so doesn't need to sell its future revenues off cheaply or learn how to make money from PE, but probably a good deal for Infantino and chums. Corruption at FIFA is nothing new, but a behind-closed-doors sweetheart deal for a large fraction of their future revenue was really pushing at boundaries ...
And Infantino had become so convinced of his own genius he thought that giving member states a fait accompli, a ticking clock and an indication that most of the money would go to states that voted yes (and a financial deal that would be an attractive bung to the 100 or so FIFA members with no chance of actually qualifying, but shrinks the future revenue stream for everyone else) would actually fly.
Plus UEFA already makes more money than FIFA, could happily organize a rival competition attracting more top teams from the rest of the world and sponsorship money if it came to that, and had a unique opportunity to flex where fans and clubs would be universally behind them...
jmathai 13 hours ago [-]
The experience interacting with FIFA is so terrible already. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if it turned into a profit machine.
4lb0 9 hours ago [-]
Already is a highly corrupted profit machine. I am not against nor in favor of the proposed change. If EUFA is against is because they felt they are not being favored, it is not in favor of the sport.
CodingJeebus 13 hours ago [-]
Agreed, the tickets to the tournament this year were just outrageously priced. Football is historically a working class sport, but $1,000 to watch a team like DR Congo in the group stage is next level criminality. And it's only going to get worse from here.
curun1r 12 hours ago [-]
FIFA looked at this World Cup as an experiment. They wanted to see whether turning the monetization knob all the way to 11 would encounter significant resistance or whether fans would still watch/attend. The US, with its plethora of expensive stadiums and lax regulatory environment for price gouging compared to Europe, was the perfect testing environment. They upped the number of teams to 48 to get more games, used dynamic ticket pricing, added hydration breaks for more commercials in markets that would allow it and added a few other income streams. All this more than doubled their profits because, and this is the important part going forward, fans didn’t push back. They complained, but the still came/watched.
So this will now be the new norm. Host countries will be ones where laws don’t prohibit gouging fans. They’ll come up with creative solutions to meet the rotation requirement like the upcoming host a couple games in South America farce that’s allowing them to go to Saudi Arabia after that. They’ll continue to push the boundaries of decency until they get sufficient pushback.
hibikir 11 hours ago [-]
There was pushback if you look at per-team attendance situations, but there's more than enough people living in the US making a ton of money that can easily afford the crazy prices. It did lower how many people from some big football nations decide to follow their team around. Not just due to the prices, but the travel distances. Just consider the practical logistics for, say, Spain's run. 2 games in Atlanta (Cabo verde and Saudi Arabia), then go play Uruguay in Guadalajara, then Austria in SoFi/L.A, then Portugal in the Dallas metro, back to SoFi for Belgium, again to Arlington for France, and New Jersey for Argentina: That's a lot of travel and hotel changing, because there's no reasonable way to go to a game and come back in the same day.
For all the problems in Qatar's world cup, a fan could watch two games a day, live,because the stadiums were that close. The 2026 bid maximized distances about as much as one could, vs, say, at least limit it all to the west coast, which would still be a lot by normal standards, bout would mean fewer huge metros where you could dip your toe in and ask for a ton of money, as there'd be very few games there.
And again, we are talking a team that won, and was among the favorites to win from day 1, just not being able to fill 1/3rd of the stadium, or anything close.
jmathai 12 hours ago [-]
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying but I said before any of this mess, and just dealing with the ticket purchasing experience, that this would be the last World Cup I attend.
It’s sad though. The World Cup, while imperfect, remains an event that brings the world together. We don’t have many of those left.
conradfr 12 hours ago [-]
Like for live music tickets prices it's hard to collectively do the right thing and boycott. There's just too many people.
But there's always a breaking point... hopefully.
lotsofpulp 10 hours ago [-]
There is no right and wrong here. Watching a bunch of guys kick a ball around is a completely optional activity. The stadium can accommodate x people, and x+n people want to watch the game.
Therefore, someone has to be left out. That can be decided multiple ways, but there is no philosophical reason that money being the deciding factor is wrong. We use that mechanism for almost everything else in the world. It's the worst system...except for all the others.
If the problem is the size of the wealth gap between people, that's wholly unrelated to sports game tickets, and in the purview of government policy.
dylan604 8 hours ago [-]
You see it in England all the time where organized fan groups do push back and protest ending up with the owners walking back the suggested ticket increases.
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
It’s a union and moves power to the little people.
nephihaha 8 hours ago [-]
"Football is historically a working class sport"
Not as much as the popular culture makes out. Association football (as opposed to folk football) was codified in English private schools such as Uppingham, and at Cambridge University. Working class people played very different forms of football at the time, including carrying the ball etc. Association football was the more genteel form of the game. It used to be the main sport at Eton College, not rugby.
scott_w 3 hours ago [-]
While true, it’s not a refutation at all. Look at the attendance makeup of every English club in the last 100 years, listen to the stories of the people who grew up supporting their local team, the young boys that grew up playing and became local or national heroes. That tells you where the soul of football lives.
rapidfl 31 minutes ago [-]
the FIFA branding on the EA game was gone and EA still came out well. So UEFA could learn something from that situation.
javier2 13 hours ago [-]
For Infantino, they reckon his salary can go from 6M to 60M under this new org…
miohtama 11 hours ago [-]
Infantino should call Altman
juliusceasar 10 hours ago [-]
Or Madoff, SBF, Weinstein, etc
throw1234567891 7 hours ago [-]
Don’t give them stupid ideas.
dzonga 9 hours ago [-]
Infantino & Trump are just corrupt. Neck to neck with officials in African governments.
Infantino & Trump's corruption is literally driven by greed. not the good greed - but just bad, power hungry insatiable greed.
ardit33 13 hours ago [-]
They also got so greedy that even EA couldn't deal with them anymore and they ended up destroying the Fifa videogame franchise
tmgldn 13 hours ago [-]
Imagine being more money hungry than EA - a company which makes billions from gaslighting children into gambling money on getting their favourite players.
seviu 13 hours ago [-]
FIFA is also a terrible employer
Got friends working for them as developers. They ran away. In months
duxup 10 hours ago [-]
It's wild how bad the experience is working for top level sports teams can be. Many (in the US at least) have an absolute lock on massive profits and value increasing like crazy ... but they operate like the cheapest small business that can't bother the new guy a chair that isn't broken.
skywhopper 11 hours ago [-]
Based on the quality of their World Cup ticketing website, I’m not surprised. That was the worst ticketing experience I’ve ever endured.
jackbravo 13 hours ago [-]
Are you talking about EA or FIFA?
decimalenough 10 hours ago [-]
Yes.
13 hours ago [-]
lossolo 13 hours ago [-]
> and many others
Trump and Kushners
"Joshua Kushner is now the kingpin in driving the sale of the World Cup to investors and family ties are tight around the project"[1]
and part of the proposal is to get Fifa to borrow and take on debt lol it's peak capitalism
jimbokun 13 hours ago [-]
Which is clearly not enough.
brunoborges 12 hours ago [-]
The point is not how much it made, it is how to transfer that wealth (whether 6B or 60B) out of a non-profit into someone else's account without looking like, or literally being, a criminal.
testdelacc1 12 hours ago [-]
A nonprofit can be questioned about how it pays people.
A private company answers only to shareholders.
brunoborges 12 hours ago [-]
bingo
TZubiri 8 hours ago [-]
Seems like this is the era of using NFP to make money through spinoff corporations.
outside1234 12 hours ago [-]
These people looked at OpenAI and went "Hey, I can run corruption like that too!"
fHr 11 hours ago [-]
true lmao
hulitu 12 hours ago [-]
> UEFA
They are no strangers to certain aspects of it. /s
13 hours ago [-]
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
What's new? I thought it has been known as a big-money thing for some time now.
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
The new thing is trying to take the organization from a non-profit to a corporation. Mainly so the executives can increase their already large compensation apparently.
Interesting parallels to OpenAI.
glitchc 13 hours ago [-]
FIFA made $~15 billion USD this World Cup, roughly double what they made in Qatar in 2022. There are many low-hanging fruit that can be optimized to increase that revenue by 10x.
overfeed 13 hours ago [-]
I didn't realize the commercial-block-sized "hydration breaks" were that profitable.
For a second, I thought the Americanization[1] of fùtbol would be done gradually and no one would complain as we'd be slowly boiled. I'm glad the corrupt bastards got greedy/impatient and took a big swing.
1. Sports primarily as a business, catering to owners first, sponsors second, broadcasters third, and then lastly, fans. IMO non-profit sports organizations are the best model for fans, who I identify the most with.
ifwinterco 10 hours ago [-]
It is absolutely outrageous that FIFA unilaterally changed the structure of a football match (that’s been the same since the nineteenth century) with no consultation, just so they could show ads
throw1234567891 7 hours ago [-]
Don’t watch. I watched the last 10 minutes of the tournament and it was enough.
notahacker 10 hours ago [-]
There were 40% more games than the last World Cup, which is a lot of extra broadcast rights and ticket revenues...
glitchc 12 hours ago [-]
Per-ticket prices were a big factor too. By turning it into an open bidding process, every ticket sold at close to its market value, and many above that.
herdrick 9 hours ago [-]
Above? I don't know anything about these particular auctions, but how could any auction arrive at a price above market value?
skywhopper 11 hours ago [-]
And they took a 15% commission on both sides of every aftermarket transaction. I’ve never seen such an overtly avaricious “marketplace”.
tremon 11 hours ago [-]
Off in the distance, an app store rings its 30% bell.
haunter 13 hours ago [-]
The difference that FIFA ran the whole tournament now. There was no Local Organizing Committee (LOC) like with every single previous event.
ahartmetz 2 hours ago [-]
I have never before seen "FIFA World Cup" used so much and I guess that's why. Do you enjoy watching FIA F1 or IOC Olympics? It's pushy and inconsiderate self-promotion that nobody wants to hear.
lossolo 12 hours ago [-]
> There are many low-hanging fruit that can be optimized to increase that revenue by 10x.
The $15 billion figure is for FIFA's ENTIRE 2023-2026 revenue cycle, so not just this World Cup. But the obvious "low-hanging fruit" was making the tournamenta lot larger (104 matches instead of Qatar's 64), so a lot more tickets, hospitality sales, ads etc
Also two 3 minute hydration breaks per match, giving broadcasters additional advertising windows.
That's your "optimization".
notahacker 10 hours ago [-]
Yeah, I can see them doubling that revenue by being even more extortionate with ticket prices and adding another 16 teams (as already planned to happen) to add more games.
But the only way they 10x is to start running more FIFA competitions, and that's when they encroach on UEFA's cash cows...
throw1234567891 7 hours ago [-]
Some good thoughts here. I could see a stretching break and maybe a rolling competition between halves.
skywhopper 11 hours ago [-]
FIFA has announced they plan to officially sell off everything to private investors, dropping all pretense of being a steward of a common good.
erfgh 12 hours ago [-]
What's wrong with making billions? Will this hurt the game somehow?
tommek4077 12 hours ago [-]
We've seen the start with "hydration breaks" and a 30 minute half-time.
mig1 12 hours ago [-]
Investors calling to change red cards because the best players should play, etc
netsharc 2 minutes ago [-]
It's going to be the "red card brought to you by Pizza Hut" soon...
Hah and because Pizza Hut wants exposure, it'll come out more and more.
lkramer 11 hours ago [-]
Instead of just various penis challenged nation leaders doing so...
ralfd 12 hours ago [-]
Yes.
The game was already hurt this world cup with the flow destroying „hydration breaks“ to sell more ads.
stackghost 11 hours ago [-]
Yes it will hurt the game. Americans already have the NFL if they want to watch commercials. Leave soccer alone.
didntknowyou 10 hours ago [-]
nothing wrong, but did we really need ticket prices to go from 100 to 1000 if they weren't struggling financially?
throw1234567891 7 hours ago [-]
But Trump is happy. Everyone made a killing!
Kuyawa 10 hours ago [-]
First off, fire Infantino on the spot, just the same way they fired Blatter for corruption.
This last world cup was the worse I've ever seen since 1978, almost 50 years, and I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. We all know billions are moved under the table, but money can never break rules and traditions, specially if they don't benefit fans and players above all
Did anybody ask the players about the hydration break? About increasing teams to 48, now to 64? More games is more possibility of injuries and benched players are no good for the show. So always be careful about wanting more golden eggs, the goose may be exhausted already
bluedevil2k 9 hours ago [-]
While I agree with your view on hydration breaks, I have to disagree that 48 teams was a bad thing. It led to wonderful stories like Cape Verde (and their goalie) who were competitive against Argentina. They wouldn’t even have qualified under the old system. We saw Congo almost beat England (again, a non-qualifier in the old days). Conversely, scoring goals is exciting and Germany’s 7-1 over Curaçao let us see some amazing goals.
More teams means more underdogs, more chances for greatness and more high points. I know it was purely for money, but I think the move to 48 teams really worked.
iforgetti 8 hours ago [-]
Cape Verde would have qualified under the 32 team cup as well.
Agreed with both you and parent on the commercial, I mean hydration, breaks. What a disaster.
chirau 8 hours ago [-]
Cape Verde would have qualified for the World Cup even if there were 32 teams. Cape Verde topped its group, beating usual world cup teams like Cameroon.
The narrative that Cape Verde is a beneficiary of the 48-team setup is completely and utterly false.
caminante 5 hours ago [-]
Even if they wouldn't have made the 32 team bracket, these Cinderella stories are propaganda like the NCAA uses to monetize "student athletes".
It's an excuse to squeeze more money out of the brand with a lower quality product.
It's shrinkflation.
croes 8 hours ago [-]
More teams means only big nations can be the host venue.
bluedevil2k 5 hours ago [-]
Hosting is a financial disaster for smaller countries (economically, like Brazil), it’s a good thing if they can’t host them.
croes 3 hours ago [-]
It’s only a financial disaster he you don’t have the power to force FIFA for a fair share.
And that would become worse with investors.
Not only for host nations but for the players and fans too
fuddle 5 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately they are needed now.
"The 2026 FIFA World Cup was the hottest World Cup since the competition began in 1930. A Guardian analysis found that close to 20 percent of matches were played under heat and humidity conditions that FIFPRO, the players' union, has flagged as dangerous enough to warrant delaying or postponing play. Some 20 games were played at wet bulb globe temperatures that hit or exceeded 28 degrees Celsius (82 Fahrenheit)." - Katharine Hayhoe's newsletter
ctxc 3 hours ago [-]
20 games, of 104? Not to mention games were played in indoor air conditioned stadiums.
MLS already has a system where a game has a break only when it reaches 28deg C for a period of x minutes
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
First game I saw was in Boston where it was 20C and raining.
raffael_de 7 hours ago [-]
next time fifa will introduce the pee break 10 minutes after the hydration break
onlypassingthru 9 hours ago [-]
Two teams with 1/4 of the world's potential customers did not make the cut for this year's tournament, more's the pity. The tournament will likely be expanded until these two teams can qualify.
gitgud03191 4 hours ago [-]
Wouldn't it be easier for countries of 1+ billion people to find 11 players who can play at the level of other countries? The Asian Football Confederation is hardly the most competitive in the first place.
mcmcmc 9 hours ago [-]
Why bother? If it’s not a popular sport there already, the viewership wouldn’t be worth the cost
dghlsakjg 8 hours ago [-]
I don’t know about China, but India has a lot of fans and had pretty good viewership.
Whether a national team qualifies isn’t that strongly correlated to whether the sport is popular. Most of south and Central America are as fanatical as Brazil or Argentina, but they were not in the tournament.
triceratops 13 hours ago [-]
This is so highly unusual even sports-allergic HN wants to discuss it. It's like a religious schism in some sense.
xhevahir 13 hours ago [-]
It's about brazen corruption in one of the world's most famous institutions. Taking an interest in it isn't as irrational as all that.
AlecSchueler 1 hours ago [-]
It's unusual when we're flagging posts about DOGE exfiltrating public data as off topic because it isn't purely tech related.
theshrike79 39 minutes ago [-]
TBH a bunch of people were (still are?) massive fans of the dipshit in charge of DOGE.
Nobody likes Infantino.
robocat 4 hours ago [-]
FIFA Gate corruption was in 2015. The new problem is business.
On what planet are we supposed to believe Infantino isn’t corrupt?
11 hours ago [-]
coffeebeqn 13 hours ago [-]
I don’t know whos on Infantinos side on this
tverbeure 13 hours ago [-]
There are 200+ participating countries. Many of those are on his side, because they’re tiny and easy to bribe: a few million is significant for them and often that money can be siphoned into corrupt pockets.
That said, a World Cup without any of the 55 UEFA countries wouldn’t make sense commercially.
notahacker 11 hours ago [-]
Past tense. Were on his side. He also just lost a unanimous vote with CONCACAF, the body representing many of the smallest islands least likely to ever qualify for the World Cup or actually generate money from football (and a small number of larger nations that will benefit significantly from his other pledges like more places for CONCACAF natons at the World Cup)
In addition to them all knowing that a World Cup without UEFA isn't going to happen, they also weren't impressed by being presented with a fixed offer and a ticking clock rather than an opening of negotiations....
dataengineer56 1 hours ago [-]
CONCACAF almost always share opinions with UEFA, that really wasn't a surprise or anything new.
woodpanel 10 hours ago [-]
Its not just tinyness and poorness of the countries – it is also the indifference of many nations. Just because, say Brunei has the same voice as France, it does not mean that the sport, or the national team's performance is important enough for their people to care or even notice if their representatives are selling their nation's voice to the highest bidder.
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
But the USA men might finally do well!
Depending on whether the South American teams show up…
You know which country the Nazi's fled to, right..?
Hint: the same one who act like strongmen on the field.
tverbeure 12 hours ago [-]
I’ve bad news for you: Concacaf has also unanimously spoken against the plan. :-)
(Though AFAIK they haven’t yet threatened a boycott.)
11 hours ago [-]
walthamstow 12 hours ago [-]
The heads of Football Associations of tiny countries who took enormous bungs to vote for him and then spent the money on some facilities but mostly themselves
There is nothing this family does not see as an opportunity for corruption. Comically evil.
an0malous 13 hours ago [-]
as an opportunity for profit*
I think it’s important to clarify the incentives at play, people are rarely evil for the sake of being evil
skygazer 12 hours ago [-]
I think the evil part is the [at any cost] part, the incentives are irrelevant. An AI that only wants to make paperclips isn't evil because of the paperclips.
ifwinterco 10 hours ago [-]
The thing is though, they’re already outrageously rich.
At some point you genuinely are just being dodgy purely for the love of the game
anigbrowl 8 hours ago [-]
'I don't want to do evil things! But they so well, what choice do I have?!'
throw1234567891 7 hours ago [-]
“And those are great, great beautiful evil things. They came to me and said how beautiful those great evil things are.”
No clue how people fall for that.
sizzzzlerz 9 hours ago [-]
And it is so blatant to everyone except the republicans.
amelius 8 hours ago [-]
Republicans should be called the anti-Democrats at this point.
steveBK123 13 hours ago [-]
Kushner
hdgvhicv 13 hours ago [-]
> Sepp Blatter weighed in, writing on X: "The close relationship between the Fifa president and the US President [Donald Trump] has reached a financial dimension that is deeply damaging football. No-one has the right to sell our game."
Sepp Blatter for crying out loud.
altmanaltman 12 hours ago [-]
Blatter was corrupt to the core but cared about the actual sport if you look at his record. This new president is like a james bond villian caricature like he actually wants to destroy the sport.
Fnoord 5 hours ago [-]
Must hurt, seeing someone do similar shit as you did, yet getting away with it.
Like, mmm, Lance Armstrong, after he got caught.
dismalaf 13 hours ago [-]
Who better to recognize corruption?
sizzzzlerz 12 hours ago [-]
That's like John Gotti saying Al Capone was corrupt.
quakeguy 12 hours ago [-]
It takes one to know one, yep.
hermitcrab 11 hours ago [-]
Game recognizes game.
qzw 13 hours ago [-]
The companies that want a piece of FIFA, I assume.
Edit: I just realized you meant who here on hn, in which case I assume the hardcore capitalists/libertarians. But they can speak for themselves.
mrhottakes 13 hours ago [-]
On HN? The capitalist/libertarian/Elon posters, Meta employees, etc.
throw-the-towel 8 hours ago [-]
It's just yet another Donald Trump story, which are legion around here these days. The World Cup itself is also a hot topic right now, with Euros and Muricans trying to rage bait each other.
NKosmatos 8 hours ago [-]
“Football’s future cannot be dictated by the expectations of those whose first duty is to maximise financial return.”
Very well said…replace the word football with internet/technology/web/research/university or so many others and you might understand why this single powerful phrase is so important.
mmonaghan 6 hours ago [-]
Platitudes sound nice but in the real world you need incentives and there are plenty. Other than real madrid and barcelona and a few italian clubs, very few euro clubs are run as non-profits. Easy to argue that maximizing financial return is the reason football has grown in prominence over the last 20-30 years.
I say that but I also agree i dont think fifa or any of the regional orgs need more or any financial incentives. Keep profits for the club, keep the governing body to governing, and the regional orgs to organizing.
I actually think this is an area where the us could do a lot of good - sweep in, clean out fifa and as many of the regional orgs as you're able (they're connected), and keep the pressure on. Only the US is really able to do this and we hate cheating in sports.
tragiclos 6 hours ago [-]
> Other than real madrid and barcelona and a few italian clubs, very few euro clubs are run as non-profits.
Not non-profit per se, but the Bundesliga[1] requires that teams are majority owned by club members and investors are limited to minority ownership.[2]
In Portugal at least, all (I think? At least all the major ones like Benfica, Sporting and Porto) of the clubs are sports associations and are controlled by the club members. This does not mean that there isn’t major money in this, but a club president can get removed by fans, which happened with Porto recently (due to corruption… the club almost went bankrupt).
These clubs are often very old as well, and often were small regional clubs that got big, so they are significant in their cities and do a ton more than just football.
TZubiri 7 hours ago [-]
To my knowledge there's a lot of infrastructure NFP that have not sold their assets: the NICs, IETF, FSF/GNU, Debian, WikiMedia (sort of)
PaulRobinson 11 hours ago [-]
The moment external investors acquire ownership interests in FIFA competitions, football changes forever. Commercial return becomes a permanent obligation. Investor expectations become a daily pressure. From that moment onwards, every decision on the international calendar, every decision on competition formats and every decision shaping the future of football is no longer driven by what best serves the game, but by what best serves shareholders.
These words apply to any investment. It's worth considering as part of any business, including many of the businesses we're here to watch grow - the moment you have others involved as equity partners, the entire culture has to change. Do it consciously, or not at all.
w10-1 9 hours ago [-]
> Do it consciously
Yes
> These words apply to any investment [...] the entire culture has to change
I think that's fatalistic. There are plenty of people and legal structures that limit the influence of investors to reasonable returns, most famously founders retaining control, or the public benefit corporation (like Veeva) or nonprofit (OpenAI as the counter-example showing how even structures are no guarantee). It's all part of setting up the systems to work with available people, within the business leader's ambit.
xorcist 12 hours ago [-]
Why only now? UEFA should boycott the world cup, period. It should have been enough even before the Balogun nonsense. They have the best league and the best teams, they have the know how and could easily host the UEFA World Cup.
They could host a tournament without the pay-to-win arbitrary overruling of red cards and the clownish half time entertainment. Nobody would care about the FIFA World Cup.
Fork it!
smotched 10 hours ago [-]
UEFA is not an angel, they generate far more money than FIFA from TV rights, sponsorships, and tickets. They also just don't want to ever lose that.
mcmcmc 9 hours ago [-]
Doesn’t the majority of that go back to the clubs that make it to European competitions though?
mktemp-d 7 hours ago [-]
Here is the UEFA business model according to their statements.
97% returns to the club and 9.3% is ear marked for football development programs.
Some of the money is utilized as reimbursement to clubs that did not manage to qualify.
PS
Treating HN like a search engine is not constructive. No flak tho, I also do this sometimes.
manquer 6 hours ago [-]
It was a rhetorical question[1] I believe , the purpose was not to obtain information .
[1]used as aporetic or perhaps even epiplectic device
TheRoque 9 hours ago [-]
Isn't it a non profit too ? But you seem to imply it's going into individual's pockets ?
throw1234567891 7 hours ago [-]
The non-profit makes no profit but it doesn’t mean those involved can’t make profits. An investment in a new jet for the boss is an investment back into the non-profit!
cindyllm 5 hours ago [-]
[dead]
hermitcrab 11 hours ago [-]
And run it on exactly the same dates as any FIFA matches.
xorcist 10 hours ago [-]
Exactly! You would have a number of oil states competing, and that's it.
They have everything to win. It's opposite of the PGA/LIV situation, the breakout group have the stronger trademark and the better teams. It's baffling that UEFA didn't move in already when FIFA was too greedy even for EA, which is saying something.
isr 7 hours ago [-]
Before you eulogize UEFA too much (ok, too late, you already did), answer me this.
Where did Infantino come from? Answer: UEFA
And for that matter, which continent did his predecessor Sepp Blatter start his football admin career in? Hint: he's not from Asia or Africa
Probably the most widely admired admin in big-time football right now is al-Khalifa, the head of PSG. A Qatari. You know - those guys who organized by common consent is considered the best World Cup in modern times (during which EUROPEAN teams were ostentatiously protesting on the pitch - while keeping VERY quiet WHEN playing a World Cup in a country who is still facilitating an ONGOING GENOCIDE) .
And from reports, he doesn't want to touch FIFA with a 10 foot barge pole.
Europe had managed to keep the lions share of footballs global revenues to itself, while keeping Africa as basically a "football nursery" where teenagers get almost trafiked across Europe before 90% are discarded.
This is one of the reasons why a (corrupt, mendacious & sly) Infantino had some support across Africa & Asia. Because he played off that imbalance. Rather like one mafioso giving you "protection" against another mafia mob.
Just saying, Europe & UEFA arent necessarily the angels in any of this ...
ByThyGrace 2 hours ago [-]
> while keeping VERY quiet WHEN playing a World Cup in a country who is still facilitating an ONGOING GENOCIDE
It's mystifying that this claim can be made ambiguously to more than one former World Cup host.
shmuli9 13 hours ago [-]
About time
Hard to think of a modern institution as corrupt as fifa. That may not bother too many people because it’s not their government, but I just think it stinks
t0mpr1c3 13 hours ago [-]
FIFA has been monstrously corrupt since at least as far back as the 1970s (Havelange).
I backslid this year, but did completely boycott watching in 2018 and 2022. Russia is a pariah state and should never have been allowed to host, and Qatar was manifestly unsuitable.
The only difference this year is that the bribery and political favors were out in the open.
paxys 12 hours ago [-]
There are levels to it. Sepp Blatter was notoriously corrupt, but Infantino makes his "envelope full of cash under the table" style of corruption look amateurish.
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
Even in the festering pit of slime that is FIFA, Infantino stands out for his festeringdom and slimitude.
dataengineer56 1 hours ago [-]
> Qatar was manifestly unsuitable
Every stadium was within a 30 mile radius and fans reported a clean, safe experience. Sounds like a good place for a tournament to me.
Russia a pariah state, as opposed to the US. Good thing freedom won and the US was allowed to host.
hnarn 11 hours ago [-]
What an excellent example of the most Russian thing of all: whataboutism.
don_esteban 1 hours ago [-]
Whataboutism is a word invented to deflect any criticism of western hypocrisy.
Like antisemitism, its overuse has rendered it toothless.
hnarn 37 minutes ago [-]
So it’s like ”Russophobia”? :-)
don_esteban 15 minutes ago [-]
Eh, Russophobia is also funny, as it is typically applied to those that hate Russia, as opposed to those that fear Russia.
"Putin's apologist" as a smear on those who reject the mainstream narrative about Ukraine war (even if highly critical of Russia/Putin) is a better match.
tchalla 11 hours ago [-]
Whataboutism doesn’t make the what about claim untrue.
mcmcmc 8 hours ago [-]
[dead]
mcmcmc 9 hours ago [-]
When’s the last time the US forcibly annexed land from a neighboring country? Crimea is Ukrainian
dghlsakjg 8 hours ago [-]
The US has used force to unilaterally remove two heads of state this year, and is enforcing a blockade on Cuba that is wreaking havoc in an attempt to remove a third head of state.
That Russia is worse should not shield the US from criticism.
MYEUHD 8 hours ago [-]
The US forcibly annexed Venezuelan oil six months ago
altermetax 8 hours ago [-]
I mean, they are trying
maccard 12 hours ago [-]
> Hard to think of a modern institution as corrupt as fifa
IOC is about the only organisation that comes close to it I think.
jondea 11 hours ago [-]
In the Dictator's Handbook the authors argued that FIFA and IOC function similar to autocratic dictatorships because there is a small group of people who are essential to power. Therefore it is rational to buy them rather than do the right thing by the fans (who have very little power). As cold as the reasoning is, the explanation stuck with me.
Their suggestion is to open up the power structure, e.g. to all past players/Olympians.
DrJokepu 12 hours ago [-]
Interestingly, both FIFA and IOC are headquartered in Switzerland, a country that is ranked by Transparency International as one least corrupt countries in the world… Draw you own conclusions.
cataphract 9 hours ago [-]
One of the least corrupt countries, whose attorney general had secret meetings with Infantino when in charge of an investigation of corruption in FIFA.
kzrdude 12 hours ago [-]
A common factor seems rather that international sports orgs are often very corrupt. Would be interesting to understand why it happens systematically. Lack of good governance structures must be part of it.
Ekaros 12 hours ago [-]
I think fundamental issue is that only people who want power, money or influence get involved at highest levels. For rest operating at grass roots or slightly higher and having local impact is more important. Farther you move from there more power hungry and less passionate about underlying thing the people get.
maccard 1 hours ago [-]
Oh boy I couldn’t disagree more. Grassroots and local sports is absolutely plagued with politics, favouritism and corruption. Ask anyone who has been on the committee or coaching for their local kids soccer/athletics/hurling (in my case) teams - what goes on is absolutely criminal.
hobofan 10 hours ago [-]
The Corruption Perception Index only ranks the public sector.
dghlsakjg 8 hours ago [-]
Until recently Swiss banks were pretty famously a great place to do the kind of banking needed for global scale corruption. They still sort of are as long as none of the parties have told the bank that they are American.
Switzerland might not be corrupt, but they are fine with enabling it.
dzonga 9 hours ago [-]
bribery until recently was legal in Switzerland.
ahartmetz 2 hours ago [-]
Probably the same way it was in Germany: in some foreign countries, where it's the cost of doing business.
Switzerland has an unusually direct democracy, which keeps their house in order. Maybe it's also what allows Switzerland to benefit from crime and corruption without getting infected with the rot.
gorbachev 10 hours ago [-]
The Olympic Committee comes pretty close, maybe even ahead of FIFA.
mrandish 11 hours ago [-]
> Hard to think of a modern institution as corrupt as fifa.
<Formula 1 has joined the chat>
jl6 2 hours ago [-]
Infantino’s justification has been to “grow the game”, but I cannot imagine how football could possibly get any bigger, except maybe in the US.
nkg 13 hours ago [-]
I'm so happy to see they care enough to take a stand.
The last World Cup was a sh-t show. I expect the LA olympics to be no better.
dmarcos 13 hours ago [-]
How was it a shit show? I’m genuinely curious. I attended 5 games (Atlanta, LA and Dallas) and was a fantastic experience minus the process to get tickets.
antonyt 13 hours ago [-]
Not OP, but I would guess: "hydration breaks" to inject commercials, half-time shows that felt alien to much of the core audience, and various rule-bending shenanigans (Ronaldo, Balogun).
dmarcos 12 hours ago [-]
Hydration breaks a tad weird. Half time shows were pretty subtle, didn’t change the length of the break except for the final. There’s no soccer competition without someone complaining about refereeing. Def always things to improve but I had fun, all people around me seemed to have fun. I flew in an out and always was either public transportation or uefa provided shuttles… It was really well run. Not something you can call a “shit show”
Jtarii 12 hours ago [-]
Balogun and Ronaldo red card overturns had nothing to do with "refereeing". It was clear corruption and favouritism.
Also the treatment of the Iranian team was comically awful.
nkg 11 hours ago [-]
Oh boy, how could I forget about the Iranian team, and the other players/referees/staff that were rejected or stuck at the airport for hours ? It was worse than a sh-t show actually.
decimalenough 10 hours ago [-]
Blame the US for that one, not FIFA.
rimeice 10 hours ago [-]
Blame FIFA for giving the contest to the US to host
kaladin-jasnah 3 hours ago [-]
Did this not happen before the current administration?
watwut 11 hours ago [-]
> There’s no soccer competition without someone complaining about refereeing.
Yeah, but most of them go without president calling Infantino to change the referee verdict. All the while the president says "I dont even know the game".
> It was really well run. Not something you can call a “shit show”
I can. Oh and not allowing referee in due to his race and mistreating teams due to politics.
10 hours ago [-]
drcongo 12 hours ago [-]
> There’s no soccer competition
Ahhhh, you're American!
billforsternz 8 hours ago [-]
Soccer is a legitimate name for the sport. Football is properly the name of a whole group of sports OR in a local context the locally most popular type of football.
It's very weird for one type of football to try to claim the name all for itself globally.
BTW I am not American.
xdennis 5 hours ago [-]
No it's not. Americans call it that and they don't even like football.
billforsternz 4 hours ago [-]
Lots of people call it that. The Australian national team are called the Socceroos. The best, most authoritative magazine about the sport is called "World Soccer", published in the UK, where the name soccer originated. Even if the name soccer was used only in the USA, it would be a legitimate name. Different cultures use different names for things.
dmarcos 11 hours ago [-]
I’m spanish living in the US
TRiG_Ireland 11 hours ago [-]
Here to give you the occasional reminder that Irish people (sauf a few weirdos in Dublin) also call the sport soccer.
padjo 10 hours ago [-]
Most Irish people (save a few in Dublin) are basically Americans.
another-dave 12 hours ago [-]
The fact that you had 'hydration breaks' in enclosed, fully air-conditioned stadiums is very telling.
tzs 11 hours ago [-]
An argument I've heard is that since hydration breaks can affect the game, if you are going to have them they should be mandatory and at the same time in all games in a tournament rather than doing them like they did when they were originally introduced in 2014. Then they were only done in games when the conditions on the field got dangerous.
zzril 8 hours ago [-]
Seems like the wrong spot to optimize for fairness / equal playing conditions when the weather itself affects the game in so many more ways.
ThatMedicIsASpy 10 hours ago [-]
I can't remember this sports without a hydration break (half time). So they've been mandatory for a long time.
dghlsakjg 8 hours ago [-]
I was in one of those enclosed stadiums. It was not air conditioned. It was hot as hell, above 30c the entire game.
tverbeure 8 hours ago [-]
It was 14C in the Azteca though.
nxm 11 hours ago [-]
Not all stadiums were enclosed
fragmede 11 hours ago [-]
Telling of what? I imagine if you're running around like eg Ronaldo would be during a game, it doesn't matter how air conditioned the space is, he'd still need to hydrate, on account of all the running that happens. I'm no football expert, but I'm lead to believe that does happen during matches.
cryptoegorophy 12 hours ago [-]
Also a funny trump red card
vehemenz 11 hours ago [-]
I think your attitude, which is all too common, is that we should do things according to the "footballing nations" without any other consideration for the rest of the world. North America is part of the world.
The US itself is far and away the world's biggest sporting nation, and many there see football's informality and cynicism as antiquated and, honestly, embarrassing. The world outside of the US wants to protect "their" game, though it's not theirs to begin with, ignoring the existing, systematic issues with it, even making contrived arguments about the word "soccer" itself.
FIFA's shenanigans off-the-field were a problem, but they're not unique to the World Cup nor its location. I'd argue the last Copa America and Cup of Nations had worse issues with officiating/corruption.
snakey 11 hours ago [-]
This is the most american centric take I’ve seen all week! Bravo!
There are many other nations with just as much influence in sports outside of the US. The only difference being that the US doesn’t care about them.
Football is a global game, everyone’s, not another thing for the US to dictate and ruin.
vehemenz 6 hours ago [-]
I'm American, so I'm not sure who your comment is for. Anti-Americanism isn't a "gotcha" to me. If anything, it's confirmation of the persistent asymmetry in these discussions.
Football (or basketball, if you're Lithuanian) is a massive cultural institution in many parts of the world. The difference is that sports—just sports—are the institution in America. We could look at revenues, but that's far too easy. Look at the whole picture. Look at youth participation, women's sports, college sports. It's not comparable anywhere else.
For football specifically, the current situation is that a handful of European countries control the best leagues and consistently have the best international squads. This isn't changing anytime soon. The game is already owned by a group of elite countries—almost exclusively in Europe, benefitting from geography, mutual competition, and visa gatekeeping—and one confederation (UEFA).
The fact that the game shouldn't be "ruined" (or latent anti-Americanism) suggests you're okay with this situation. You didn't comment on rule enforcement or cynical play either, but I assume you're okay with those things or take them for granted.
Americans see football through the lens of other sports, because we are a sporting culture, and football is one of many. All the "American" sports have their problems too, but we don't pretend they don't for phony reasons. But we also have choices and exercise those choices. Footballing nations, I get the impression, see all sports through the lens of football. I often wonder whether fans in footballing countries genuinely like their sport for what it is or whether it's just a narcissistic cultural inheritance.
jrflowers 5 hours ago [-]
Please talk more about how not wanting things ruined is anti-Americanism
stonedivot 5 hours ago [-]
Please attempt to read the comment in depth before replying.
2 hours ago [-]
Fnoord 5 hours ago [-]
Maybe look up the name FIFA and UEFA. Given the context, it is very clear what football refers to. Ie. soccer, not rugby or American football.
robocat 4 hours ago [-]
UEFA isn't really an initialism (well, maybe a backronym). FI is from French and FA is from English. French also has the word Football, but it was taken from English. - Googling.
curun1r 12 hours ago [-]
The Iranian team’s treatment is a prime example. The Somalian ref being denied entrance is another. And the Balogun red card is a double example (it shouldn’t have been a red card in the first place, but the precedent that the President of the host country can get a call overturned is even worse).
scrumper 12 hours ago [-]
I am the last person to defend FIFA - I love the UEFA's stance here - but only Balogun's suspension can be pinned on FIFA. Those other things are down to USA politics. Bad, for sure, not really down to FIFA.
Other than those awful hydration breaks, they didn't ruin it much. I didn't love the extended half time in the final, but I was only hate watching Argentina anyway so didn't care much. Better to have the standard interval but not egregious to extend in the final. Overall it was a good tournament, a proper "feast of football" as we used to say. Some fine-tuning to do with the VAR but even then there weren't as many egregiously unfair calls as in years past. (Croatia's disallowed goal being a memorable example because it was so rare.) Many, many good games and some memorable moments - Cape Verde!
xxs 11 hours ago [-]
> proper "feast of football" as we used to say.
besides a significantly more common 4-3-3, I can't think of anything I particularly found entertaining - the waterworks, the extra VARs, the super special offside line. That's no feast. (and I can continue)
tverbeure 7 hours ago [-]
Despite all the bad things, I once again loved the whole tournament. Can’t wait for the next one.
Fnoord 5 hours ago [-]
Did you enjoy the finals resembling rugby, with one team not playing football at all?
tverbeure 5 hours ago [-]
Yup! We had a bunch of friends over. Good times were had by all.
Finals are boring more often than not. You just have to accept that. And when one of the team’s key skill is suffocating the other side, a game like that was to be expected. Only my mighty compatriots were able to crack the code… once.
PaulRobinson 10 hours ago [-]
- The number of teams expanding weakened the group stage to a point of being ignorable
- The extraordinary pricing of the tickets
- "Hydration breaks" to cater for TV advertising
- The US red card being rescinded after a phone call from an interested party
- Argentina's free pass throughout
FIFA has been corrupt since the days of João Havelange, although his stance was broadly to bring football to more countries and just needed a way to finance that (enter stage left, Coca-Cola, and stage right, Adidas and ISL), but it started getting really wild after him.
It's gone unchecked. There was talk of the English FA pulling out of UEFA and FIFA some years ago, as there was a perception the soul of the game had been tarnished by both orgs.
This is a good first step, and I hope FIFA gets itself sorted. I hope UEFA also gets its house in order.
ajmurmann 10 hours ago [-]
Ticket prices for all events anywhere will not come back down unless we make international travel harder. There were Taylor Swift fans who flew to every concert of one of her tours. When I attended the Hungaroring Grand Prix every single person seemed to be visiting from outside Hungary. Hosting in the wealthiest country of size of course made this worse but I predict ticket prices for popular events will only keep going up and up.
opinologo 7 hours ago [-]
Argentina received more yellow cards on its last three games. How is that a "free pass"?
Cucurella should have been sent off, same as the Paraguay player for covering his mouth. Fernandez did get a yellow card for a very light challenge that he tried to avoid..
All the Argentina haters need to look at the facts. I expected more from HN.
Fnoord 5 hours ago [-]
Messi should've gotten red in the Algeria match (same ref who didn't have the balls to give star player a card, was doing the finals). Against England, Argentina were playing rugby again, and the ref just let it pass. Against Egypt, Egypt got a goal disqualified which.. was a goal. Against Switzerland, a rule of identity mismatch was used wrongly (it can only be applied on same team). Argentina was lucky to end the final with 10 players and only 1 goal against. It should've been 9 players, with a 3-0 score, but the corrupt FIFA couldn't match-fix that part. It'd have been too obvious.
opinologo 5 hours ago [-]
>>Messi should've gotten red in the Algeria match (same ref who didn't have the balls to give star player a card, was doing the finals).
There is a big difference between an intentional and not intentional foul. There was a touch but Messi did try to stop and is clear from the video. Stop the racist campaign.
>>Against England, Argentina were playing rugby again, and the ref just let it pass.
Against England they received more yellows even considering the amount of fouls. Go have a look a Harry Kane foul against Messi. No punishment.
>>Against Egypt, Egypt got a goal disqualified which.. was a goal.
It was a foul. Clearly shown on the video. Nobody is discussing that
>>Against Switzerland, a rule of identity mismatch was used wrongly (it can only be applied on same team).
That was a clear and blatantly obvious simulation. Embolo fauls magically without a touch. That destroys the game integrity. Stop the racist campaign.
That was the referee understanding at that moment. It was re-clarified few days ago.
>>Argentina was lucky to end the final with 10 players and only 1 goal against. It should've been 9 players, with a 3-0 score, but the corrupt FIFA couldn't match-fix that part. It'd have been too obvious.
Argentina had an older squad, with a great keeper. Cucurella should have been sent off, same as the player from Paraguay from provoking and covering his mouth. You just spread hateful, racist messages. Good on you.
arbitrary_name 5 hours ago [-]
I expected more from Argentina, yet here we are.
nkg 11 hours ago [-]
First, it was a new formula of the tournament with more teams which explains the headlines about a someone setting a new record every 2 days.
Second, the hydration (ads!) breaks were clearly used to tweak some tactics, player positionning, etc, making it another half-time. It's a strategic opportunity. Why not introduce a 2 min drill, then ? - yuck- That's not football.
Third, I won't talk about that specific red card or that penalty kick, but the fact that players and staff complained so much about the refereeing issues hurts the trust we can have into the game as a whole.
And that 27 min half-time... Seriously ?!
dmarcos 11 hours ago [-]
The 27 min half time was only in the final. Every world cup introduces changes that will stick or not (e.g golden goal rule). Hydration breaks probably won’t stay.
I’ve followed the sport all my life and referee complains I would say less than usual.
I like having more teams. Might even extend to 64 next time.
These are difference of opinion. Nothing singles out this world cup as a “shit show” as the OP. It was a great experience to me and pretty much anyone I encountered in the stadiums.
cataphract 9 hours ago [-]
So it's OK if FIFA breaks the rules of the game "only in the final"? (yes, I know FIFA says they didn't but their reading of Law 7.2 is not plausible)
xxs 11 hours ago [-]
>Hydration breaks probably won’t stay.
It was already introduced in the local women league...
riffraff 11 hours ago [-]
Referee complaints are common, but I can't remember a case where a disqualified player was allowed to play in last world cups.
Covert bullshit, like the Moreno care in South Korea, sure, but brazenly ignoring the rules like what happened with Balogun? I cannot remember it.
triceratops 13 hours ago [-]
The ticket prices and scalping (sorry, authorized re-selling to find the market clearing price) were robbery.
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
Sports people (I was listening to Bill Simmons) rated it pretty highly.
There was nothing egregious and it was widely attended.
t0mpr1c3 13 hours ago [-]
The way that the Iran team was only allowed into the USA on match days was a disgrace.
Refusing entry to a Somali referee on the spurious grounds of links to terrorism was a disgrace.
The overturning of Falorin Balogun's ban was a disgrace.
The ticket prices were a disgrace. The transport to the stadiums was a shambles.
I could go on.
rsynnott 12 hours ago [-]
> The transport to the stadiums was a shambles.
This bit was kind of baffling to me. Like, the US has a bunch of large stadiums. Presumably they sometimes get used for stuff. How is it not a constant disaster?
There’s a medium sized (50k capacity) stadium near me, and even _with_ a train station with a train each way every ten minutes right beside it, and within easy walking distance of about five high capacity bus routes, it’s always a bit of a shitshow when a big event finishes. I’ve no idea how it could work _at all_ if you’re just depending on buses and cars, which a bunch of the US stadiums seemed to be.
dan_sbl 11 hours ago [-]
I believe a big issue was that significant amounts of parking were closed at each of the host stadiums for "security reasons", fan watch areas, etc. When they did some overhead shots of the stadiums, you could see tons of empty parking lot space.
danielvf 12 hours ago [-]
For local NFL games in a bigger stadium that, most people attending do drive, but do not park at the stadium, rather nearby, then walk the rest of the way. This spreads out the traffic over a much larger set of roads.
MandieD 12 hours ago [-]
Acres upon acres of parking lots.
ajmurmann 10 hours ago [-]
Ticket prices cannot go down unless you just want more money for scalpers. It's a simple function of supply and demand
chase_flick 11 hours ago [-]
I attended games in Dallas and was shocked at how well the city / FIFA handled transportation. Especially for a city that usually has none.
dmarcos 11 hours ago [-]
Yes. I was there at the france-spain match. Flew in in the morning was directed to the shuttles by super nice volunteers. Reasonable lines that were mostly in the shade and they were handling free water bottles.
NetMageSCW 9 hours ago [-]
Which of those were FIFA’s fault?
charlieyu1 12 hours ago [-]
The World Cup final is supposed to be a war and the half time show turned it into a clown fest.
triceratops 12 hours ago [-]
I can't agree with that. Host countries share their culture through the World Cup. South Africa had vuvuzelas, Qatar put a bisht on the winning captain's shoulders, and the USA had a half-time show.
Now if only it had been a good half-time show...
charlieyu1 8 hours ago [-]
The difference is that they broke the fundamental rules such that 15-min half time breaks to stick a half time show in.
triceratops 7 hours ago [-]
"Players are entitled to an interval at half-time, not exceeding 15 minutes; a short drinks break (which should not exceed one minute) is permitted at the interval of half-time in extra time. Competition rules must state the duration of the half-time interval and it may be altered only with the referee’s permission."
My interpretation is it is 15 minutes unless the referee allows something else.
yallpendantools 9 hours ago [-]
I'm almost too afraid to ask but what the hell...what makes a good half-time show?
I ask in earnest. I'm not American. I know there's a huuugggee buzz on who gets to do the Superbowl half-time show. But they all look the same to me: overly-polished extravagant pop performances. That can be an insult or a compliment depending on your mood but I say that as a fact. That description applies to the WC half-time show too so I don't see what makes it bad. Maybe you can accuse it of being even more over-the-top and garishly extravagant but does that make it bad?
Bad Bunny's half-time show seems to be generally considered good. Well, he's a good performer definitely and performed his show well. But what makes that different from the universally-panned WC one?
For the record, Bad Bunny isn't even in my daily playlist. I do have Coldplay but Chris Martin was so peripheral to the WC spectacle I didn't even notice him during the live broadcast.
It feels to me there's something else merited here other than just the performance itself. Bad Bunny, given his background and off-stage activism, was largely seen as a political statement. The WC show just seems too foreign for the core non-Northern American market.
I watched the WC final in a noisy bar. During the halftime the bar had its own entertainment while a muted Justin Bieber playing his guitar emoted on the big screen. I've since watched it in Youtube and I still don't get the universal disdain for it. Maybe they should've called in a bunch of Eurovision performers?
triceratops 7 hours ago [-]
> The WC show just seems too foreign for the core non-Northern American market.
Again, this is my point. WC hosts get to show something of themselves to the world. Half-time or pre-game shows are a part of American sports culture.
eigart 2 hours ago [-]
The racism participants were subjected to was the worst part for me (though I understand teams were treated very well by the local population). Hydration breaks. Incessant celebrity spotting. So many small details reminding you that US capitalism might already have succeeded in ruining the game you love. Or that they see the success of the tournament as a signal to ramp up the attacks on European club football (pushing for a franchise model).
I feel like how I imagine golfers felt once LIV golf was announced.
NoboruWataya 12 hours ago [-]
The football itself wasn't bad, it was all the other stuff - prices, unfair treatment for Iran, hydration breaks, the whole Balogun thing, the pre-game and half-time shows at the final, Trump photo-bombing the Spanish celebration, etc. Every WC has its own problems and some of these things will be forgotten about soon, but it definitely seemed more ruthlessly commercialised than ever before.
ktallett 13 hours ago [-]
The fact a ban was overturned as a political favour.
t0mpr1c3 13 hours ago [-]
Maybe the way that Infantino nakedly advanced political favors for Trump (the f×××ing peace prize, Folarin f×××ing Balogun) and now wants a fat slice of payback?
croes 7 hours ago [-]
Because it became literally a show.
Hydration breaks in air-conditioned stadiums?
A half-time show?
Football is more than just the world cup or the Championship league. It’s also about the local leagues or village clubs.
They all play the dame game and Fantino in his greed is ruining it.
Which fan could afford to watch all the games of his team?
dudul 10 hours ago [-]
I'm sorry, but this is an incredibly silly comment. The "shit show" was systemic at the strategic level. Of course, people who went to see a game had a good time, the "shit show" is at the competition level.
- 48 teams is too much. 32 is a great sweet spot. 48 is ridiculous, it genuinely felt like too many games.
- The completely inconsistent application of VAR was scandalous. I've always been a huge opponent of VAR in soccer, and I really feel vindicated. It felt like it was only used for very pointed decisions. Either you use VAR to make no mistakes at all, or you don't use it.
- The "h2o breaks" were stupid as f. They were clearly only implemented to fit in more commercial breaks.
- as usual, getting the tickets is always a nightmare, but it's been like that for 20+ years
There was some good football, I'm not even bothered by the pre/mid-game shows. There were a lot of good things, but honestly it did feel like it was in spite of everything that was done to make it unbearable.
dmarcos 9 hours ago [-]
How and when VAR should be applied is an ongoing contentious discussion not exclusive to the World Cup.
I actually loved the 48 teams. It will probably expand to 64 next cup. More people tune in, nice surprises, upsets, cinderella stories.
Access and price of tickets has been a problem for a long time and getting worse for every live event. Not exclusive to the World Cup.
There are obviously things to improve but the game and experience for people watching and attending was pretty amazing. Leaving in the US I ve had fantastic interactions with strangers everywhere for weeks.
If that’s what a “shit show” is I’m looking forward to more ha ha
yallpendantools 9 hours ago [-]
I say let the coaches have the right to initiate a VAR review. They inform an official they want a certain moment/decision/action reviewed. As long as the review gets resolved in their favor, they can keep invoking VAR. This would disincentivize review spamming, disrupting play. If there are too many VAR calls in a game, you can squarely blame the ref.
Coaches get in the face of the officials already anyway. This just gives the action a chance at being productive rather than an opportunity to get a red card.
Yes, this is based on the derided review system of Olympic Taekwondo. It's horrible in a fight sport but football is a ball game; somebody tell Paredes and Paraguay please.
Fnoord 5 hours ago [-]
It is used in hockey and tennis, with great success.
barbazoo 7 hours ago [-]
> As a result of today’s discussion, no UEFA national teams will participate in any FIFA competition for so long as these proposals remain alive, unless this proposal has been abandoned in its entirety and binding assurances have been given that FIFA will never again open its governance or competitions to private ownership.
This seems to have actual teeth. What's Infantino going to do to save face? No one cares about a world cup without the Europeans.
paulbjensen 13 hours ago [-]
It's only a matter of time before there are sponsors on the Yellow and Red cards...
tzot 9 hours ago [-]
And corporate UX/Design teams are eager to modernize those cards; yes they're already flat, but canary yellow is so last century and some glass effects or abolishing the rounded corners will be the next thing.
coffeebeqn 13 hours ago [-]
Guaranteed slots to the tournaments for patrons
andrewflnr 10 hours ago [-]
It'll be nice to have that precedent in place when we finally institute the Hunger Games.
vel0city 11 hours ago [-]
In the local minor league hockey games near me the power play (the man advantage resulting from a penalty) is usually sponsored by an electric company. The announcers say things like "..and with that cross-check they're on a TXU Energy Power Play!"
TRiG_Ireland 11 hours ago [-]
Hawkeye in GAA games is sponsored by Specsavers.
fred_is_fred 13 hours ago [-]
The red card for covering your mouth while talking to an opponent is brought to you by Telegram.
runarberg 12 hours ago [-]
“Looks like this is a card. He already has a yellow (sponsored by Qatar Airwaves), and may be looking at his second. YES! he is receiving is second yellow, this time sponsored by Universal Studio, and here is the red card. Sponsored by Red Bull. He is leaving this game and his team mates one down.”
Second commentator: “It is true, Red Bull gives you wings. In this case, the wings only take you to the shower room.”
khazhoux 12 hours ago [-]
“And that’s the second State Farm Yellow Card for Haaland!”
secretsatan 13 hours ago [-]
I follow a local team and don’t really follow the larger picture, but injuries are sponsored, i always thought that would produce a perverse incentive.
EDIT: not sure why i’m getting downvoted, they post up the injured player on the screens with a private medical company prominently displayed.
NetMageSCW 9 hours ago [-]
Because there is no incentive for the players?
Who do you think is incentivized and how does that cause a player to get injured?
secretsatan 4 hours ago [-]
Perhaps the ref may turn a blind eye?
djtango 3 hours ago [-]
It's ok - who cares about Europe anyway, they will be irrelevant imminently.
How about they create a new national league in the US, say called the National Football League and sell that to commercial interests then whoever wins that they can declare the best team in the world and therefore it is the world cup.
aucisson_masque 2 hours ago [-]
Agree. The best team are in Europe anyway, why would we care about the rest of the world ?
UEFA is all we need, make the best fight against the best in Europe and let fifa do it's shit.
Maybe we could do something like Europe - south America competition.
sizzzzlerz 12 hours ago [-]
Somewhere in this fetid swamp of corruption, you just know the trump crime syndicate has its greasy hands on the pie.
monooso 11 hours ago [-]
> If approval is granted, Fifa says Thrive Eternal is expected to lead the proposed investor group for FFE.
> Thrive is an American venture capital firm founded by Joshua Kushner - the brother of US President Donald Trump's son-in-law Jared.
I think the mandatory ad break introduced by FIFA at the World Cup was also too much for most football people, not just fans. Changed too much, broke the dynamics, basically the sport became a game of 4 quarters instead of 2 halves. These two things combined together are just over the top and unacceptable (UEFA already said they won't use these mandatory ad breaks anywhere)
This is the closest where I can see a future where we have a rugby union / rugby league like schism.
I agree completely with your assessment of the water breaks, but the games were extremely entertaining and I watched as much as I could.
triceratops 13 hours ago [-]
Of all the things wrong with the World Cup, the most inconsequential ones - hydration breaks and the final half-time show - have attracted the most griping.
alberto-m 13 hours ago [-]
Changing the pauses of the game alters the momentum and, as consequence, the results. How is that “inconsequential”? There have been cases of corrupted referees before, but violating the Laws of the Game in plain sight is an unprecedented attack on the sport.
HelloMcFly 13 hours ago [-]
I think hydration breaks can be defensible as long as they are a) conditionally triggered by pre-existing criteria that is b) created by an honest assessment of player welfare independent of economic considerations.
I can't say I think the halftime show is a big deal at all though.
aucisson_masque 2 hours ago [-]
We have been playing footbal as 2x 45 min for ever. Make it 4x 22 min and it's not the same game at all.
jen20 12 hours ago [-]
They should also not be used an excuse for teams to be coached as a group.
xmprt 13 hours ago [-]
I can agree that it definitely makes it a different game/playstyle but I'm still not sure if it's guaranteed worse. Putting ads during the break is obviously bad and a cash grab but from a gameplay perspective, it's not clear that a short break during the half is necessarily worse.
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
How does it violate the laws of the game?
Every single break time decision in football is arbitrary already.
nwbt 13 hours ago [-]
Every rule in sports is arbitrary, that's not an argument. If you want to do it properly, ask about the spirit of the game, not the laws - and there's clearly a conflict there.
NetMageSCW 9 hours ago [-]
Who gets to decide what “the Laws of the Gane” are in the FIFA World Cup?
Disrupting the pace of the game twice as many times, oftenly during critical moments is inconsequential to you? You don't sound like quite a sports person.
vehemenz 11 hours ago [-]
By this reasoning, are regular football fans really "sports people?" They tolerate wildly inconsistent officiating and diving (and other forms of unsportsmanlike conduct) that occur at every level of the game. Disrupting the pace would be the least of my worries.
jotajota24 12 hours ago [-]
I don't mean to be disrespectful but this is a dumb statement. Do you think splitting each half in 2 quarters doesn't have an impact on how the game is played?
triceratops 9 hours ago [-]
Everything has an impact on how the game is played. For example Mexico played their games at 6000 feet above sea level, giving them a big advantage. Even the ball moves differently in thinner air.
At least with hydration breaks, everyone got them and they were the same for everyone. I know sports fans don't like change. If everything else about this WC was perfect I'd say "Fine, go ahead, complain". But this is the tiniest, most meaningless thing to moan about nearly 3 weeks after the tournament is done.
monegator 13 hours ago [-]
the mandatory ad breaks were usa-level bullshit that never happened before, not even when they were playing in the fucking desert (and that world cup should have been boycotted too, but for different reasons.)
a few years ago when the momentum was moving towards tennis, some european clubs proposed a "super league" comprising of only the elite teams, the purpose was again to maximize ad profits (and i should go back to check who actually proposed it, who they were affiliated with). That time they were suggested not to proceed, or else they would be boycotted from all other events, the players too. That was also a good decision.
football (not handegg) it already corrupt enough as it is, and too much money is flowing into it, it's incredible and heart warming that there is still some dignity left in the associations.
coffeebeqn 13 hours ago [-]
The VAR calls 5 minutes after the fact were the most bothersome thing to me
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
Good thing you don’t watch Premier League. The World Cup VAR was snappy in comparison.
gffrd 13 hours ago [-]
… and the 9+’ stoppage for every match.
gffrd 13 hours ago [-]
> the most inconsequential ones
This is like saying “customers aren’t worried enough about the corporate process - they only care about the end product!”
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
There was extensive coverage and discussion of Trump getting the Balogun red card overturned.
triceratops 12 hours ago [-]
Thank you! An actual problem!
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
Why would non-fans even care? It was a 3 minute break, non-fans would not have any idea that you were going for 2 halves to 4 "quarters". I think this is the kind of thing purists care about but most people don't, most don't even know it is new.
scbrg 13 hours ago [-]
I'm most certainly not a football fan, but I definitely know that a match consists of two 45 minute (and then some) halves. It's pretty much equivalent to a non motor enthusiast knowing that there are usually four wheels on a car.
I'd say this is very, very common knowledge in huge parts of the world. It's not something only enthusiasts and purists know.
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
Sure, but they aren't leaving the field. There are plenty of stoppages in game already which take as much time. In that sense it's nothing new. Do non-fans view it as changing to 4 "quarters"? I'm not sure most people would care. This is what I mean it's the kind of thing that football purists care about but it's a very small thing.
alexanderchr 12 hours ago [-]
The breaks change the game more than you’d think, especially when the coach gets to have a strategy session with the whole team. Completely changed the momentum in several games.
scbrg 12 hours ago [-]
I don't know... I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you're from a country where football isn't very popular. I don't think you realize just how many fans there are. How utterly ingrained it is in the culture of many countries. "non-fans" make up a minuscule minority of the population of at least Europe, and as far as I understand it South America and parts of Africa too. Not sure about Asia (varies wildly between countries, I suppose), but according to [0] it's estimated that about 3.5 billion people are considered football fans.
This is certainly something many people I know have cared a lot about - and again, I'm not a football enthusiast myself, but still the vast majority of the people I know are, because, not being one really is an outlier.
> There are plenty of stoppages in game already which take as much time.
Well. Not really. And those "stoppages" are part of the game. Actually watching the players quarrel with the referee and whatnot is something football fans want to do. It's not comparable.
gffrd 13 hours ago [-]
“I’m not sure what the big deal about tripling the number of tire changes in the race is.”
13 hours ago [-]
rsynnott 13 hours ago [-]
> non-fans would not have any idea that you were going for 2 halves to 4 "quarters"
… By non-fans do you mean people who have literally never heard of football, or something? I’m very far from a fan, no interest at all. But, I mean, I know there are two halves. Everybody knows that.
rascul 5 hours ago [-]
I didn't know there were two halves or how long they are. I'm over 40 and the first actual soccer match I've seen was in the latest world cup.
secretsatan 11 hours ago [-]
I think by non fans they just mean americans, it’s almost impossiible to not be aware of the basic rules outside of there.
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
There still are 2 halves. Framing it as quarters is the entire thing. There are numerous things throughout a game which will cause the game to be paused just as long, which is why there is stoppage time.
hamper653 12 hours ago [-]
There aren’t usually numerous 5-minutes pauses in a football match, no.
12 hours ago [-]
dijksterhuis 12 hours ago [-]
except during that time players aren’t huddling around the manager and the rest of the coaching staff. all of whom have their ipads out to discuss stats breakdowns and instruct players on changing tactics and strategies.
that’s what effectively made the hydration breaks turn it into a game of four quarters. lost count of the number of times teams completely changed their strategy after the breaks and went on to score goals etc.
you make the players drink the water from the centre of the field with no coaching staff present then it would have less of an impact. but there’s still an impact as all players can huddle together and discuss things together in a way they normally wouldn’t be able to without a severe stoppage ie a delay going on 5-10+ minutes, which is usually rare.
poncho_romero 13 hours ago [-]
Why would anyone be in favour of more ad breaks?
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
I'm not arguing for ad breaks, I'm saying non-fans would not even be aware this is something new.
This is the thing that is too much? I just don't get it. The entire thing is a spectacle to sell ads.
DrSiemer 12 hours ago [-]
Europe is full of people who are not fans, but will still hear all about the games when their country plays, because it's basically impossible to avoid. Chat groups, work banter, waiting rooms, everybody will be talking about it ALL THE TIME. There is a base level of knowledge for the sport everybody shares. Maybe it's the same with American Football in the US? As a European, I still have no idea what that is even remotely about.
A game having two main uninterrupted halves is one of those foundational facts. Players train for being able to play for that long without getting too thirsty to continue.
ahartmetz 13 hours ago [-]
In almost every part of the world, all people know some basic things about football (and I do mean the one where you kick a ball with the foot), like it has two halves of 45 minutes.
charlieyu1 12 hours ago [-]
On the other hand, it gives a chance for fans to turn off the TV when the game isn’t great
monkey_monkey 13 hours ago [-]
No one really gives a shit what Americans who don't follow football think, though.
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
The original post mentioned people that weren't fans, though. Who are we talking about that are "football people" but not fans. I'm not trying to be dense, I just don't know which audience this is.
Fargren 13 hours ago [-]
USA is the exception here. In most countries, even people who are not football fans are pretty aware of how it works.
I don't often watch football outside the world cup. I don't support any teams. But I know how football is meant to be played, and I was definitely annoyed about the hydration breaks.
Does USA have people that don't follow american football but will watch the Superbowl? Would those people notice if there were three times as many breaks as usual?
ChickeNES 12 hours ago [-]
> Does USA have people that don't follow american football but will watch the Superbowl? Would those people notice if there were three times as many breaks as usual?
Well...many if not most of the people who don't follow NFL and watch the Super Bowl are watching it for the half time show and ads, so more breaks would make them happy, heh.
anigbrowl 8 hours ago [-]
Look, most people around the world are not full time fans and only tune to the national final in their country or the world cup. But in any country where soccer is popular, the basic rules are something everyone knows from kindergarten.
It's the same way that Americans know what pitchers, catchers, and batters are in baseball even if they've never picked up a bat or a glove and only go to baseball games to eat hot dogs and get drunk on overpriced beer. Soccer has two halves like baseball has nine innings,a nd the vast majority of people do not want to mess with that.
A secondary reason that they don't want to mess with it is the perception that these hydration breaks are not organic (because it's always been acceptable for players to grab a drink fo water and there are ample opportunities to do so during a regular game), but that the breaks were imposed on the game to facilitate ad breaks in American TV broadcasts. Much of the world is tired of doing things differently just because the Americans want it.
hamper653 13 hours ago [-]
Most football non-fans absolutely know that a football match is supposed to be two halves.
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
It's still two halves there is just another short stoppage time in which players stay on the field, the same as every foul, goal, and variety of other timing based decisions in football.
dekervin 10 hours ago [-]
Why don't you just say: I know nothing about football ( and I dont care much), please enlighten me?
- Football is not a game of easy scoring, often you have to build momentum, by relentlessly putting pressure on the other team. It's more important than in other sports, because in football a weaker team can easily earn a draw against a stronger team if the later fails to do just that.
Your attacks ( and defense efforts) must compound. It's almost like building a narrative inside the head of the players and inside the head of the spectators before a goal gives everyone a release one way or the other.
Moreso than in other sports where you have a lot of scoring happening. Football is closer to watching an epic drama.
Now it's true that dynamics can change on a dime. But you often have to earn that change ( like by having a skilled player who attracts fouls ).
Having regular breaks makes it almost like watching another sport.
- In most of Europe and South America even people who don't watch regular league games have an intuitive expectation of how a game should be played. And they care.
Especially when it comes to national teams because it's often a big part of the national lore. ( It's like the offside rule. Even people who despise the game end up being experts )
hamper653 13 hours ago [-]
I wouldn’t know, I haven’t watched a single football match since 2018. As for short stoppage time, football use to have much less than, say, rugby. Was it different this year?
nephihaha 8 hours ago [-]
Yes. Very much so. They added in so called hydration breaks in the middle of the halves for extra revenue.
Rugby stoppages are beginning to get ridiculous but they aren't doing them for advertising yet.
jen20 12 hours ago [-]
This would only be true if they did not allow the hydration breaks to be used as a group coaching opportunity.
pbkompasz 1 hours ago [-]
FIFA will have the same slow death as Formula 1, if the only focus becomes making money...
ff10 12 hours ago [-]
I secretly hope that Infantino goes ahead with it anyway. UEFA and others will form something new. Something that replaces the incredibly broken and corrupted FIFA with a de-facto and de-jure non-profit governing body.
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
Then you would have two corrupt organizing bodies.
Something similar happened with FIDE (chess) in the Kasparov years. I believe FIDE is still headquartered in a dodgy dictatorship in Central-asia-stan.
And I've lost count how many global boxing organizations there are, seemingly in competition with each other to minimize sporting legitimacy and financial transparency.
igsomething 12 hours ago [-]
The same UEFA that added redundant matches and teams to the Champions League for money, and that came up with the Nations League because they wanted to extract more money from the national teams?
padjo 10 hours ago [-]
Funnily enough it was Infantino who lead the introduction of the Nations League.
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
And attempted to hive off the best teams into a super league, even though this would have destroyed national leagues across the continent.
Vinnl 11 hours ago [-]
The Super League was decidedly not UEFA's - UEFA even announced sanctions against the organisers (though I think those were repealed by a court), because it was going to compete with UEFA's leagues.
FIFA is famously corrupt. But now they don't bother trying to try to hide the corruption.
sunrising 13 hours ago [-]
It's a pity that those letters are not sent for many many other things.
dotcoma 13 hours ago [-]
Europe, united at long last!
ZYZ64738 4 hours ago [-]
"Some things are simply too important to sell."
Nice! Next the more "unimportant" stuff already sold or about to be:
healthcare? education? public transportation? water? energy?
riffraff 13 hours ago [-]
It's crazy that as despicable an organization as UEFA is, they're still far better than FIFA.
Infantino has been a disgrace, I hope they manage to get rid of him, but I have very little hope.
vostrocity 13 hours ago [-]
I don't follow any sport, but I actually don't understand why UEFA and FIFA are non-profits when all the American leagues (MLB, NBA, NFL) are for-profit corporations. It seems to work well in America.
overfeed 12 hours ago [-]
> It seems to work well in America.
Does it? Who does it work out well for? Franchises continuously extort tax-payer funds for stadia,some team switches host cities every few years, and the for-profit corporations are legal cartels that decides who gets to own a team. The number of ad-breaks is horrendous to anyone who's watched sports elsewhere.
NetMageSCW 9 hours ago [-]
How exactly do they extort tax-payer funds?
pibaker 8 hours ago [-]
"Use tax money to build us a new stadium, or we will relocate to Vegas. Do you want to be known by the voters as the governor who gave up our beloved sportsball team? No? Then better pay up."
tmgldn 12 hours ago [-]
Because they were designed to be decentralised federations, atop the footballing body in each country. More generally, the US is the most capitalist country, whereas the rest of the world does automatically see capitalism as justified, superior or inevitable.
Lastly, football is a grassroots participation sport that is seen by its fans as more of a religion than a conventional act of entertainment. Of course, religion in the US is also often for-profit, but hopefully you get the point.
Normal_gaussian 12 hours ago [-]
MLB & NFL only changed to for-profit organisations somewhat recently (2007, 2015). afaict NBA has always been for-profit.
Internationally the standard is non-profits. Most sports have both their international organisations and highest standard of play organisations as non-profits - football, tennis, golf, cricket. The international components of baseball, american football, and basketball are all non-profits (though they are lower standards of play than the US internal leagues).
paxys 12 hours ago [-]
American sports leagues are also non-profit organizations. Profits go to the individual teams. So no, FIFA should not be run by private equity firms.
charlieyu1 13 hours ago [-]
Are they? Their revenues are limited and they can’t really extend their influence outside USA. Meanwhile European games are watched globally
arbitrary_name 4 hours ago [-]
imo, usa has the worst sports culture of any country I've lived in (6 so far).
Oakland Raiders? not anymore! teams just leave to another city if the money is right. craziness.
the sheer number of ads and marketing.
what are you smoking?
mgianluc76 13 hours ago [-]
Good calls. Honestly, the last World Cup already had way too many unwatchable matches before the quarterfinals. And the hydration pauses to sell more ads. And that halftime show during the final.
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
It was incredibly entertaining and I watched as many games as I could.
padjo 10 hours ago [-]
Yeah it was a disaster really.
faramarz 9 hours ago [-]
I want to know what kind of outcomes were put forward in front of him, because otherwise he looks like the biggest fool of the decade (a rich one at that).
Wow!
Goes off to have Claude look at the FIFA governance charter. This guy is so done!
dragant 4 hours ago [-]
I actually like FIFA's plan. FIFA is distributing money back to the the associations...ALL ASSOCIATIONS...and lots of money. Infantino has really poured money into minority (less wealthy) associations across the world. No wonder we got Cape Verde and its glory!
jotajota24 12 hours ago [-]
This whole thread is full of people that cannot conceive a model where profit is not the goal
throwaway132448 12 hours ago [-]
Welcome to HN. It wasn’t always this way, but it sure is now!
kalleboo 8 hours ago [-]
When I first came here 15 years ago it was always more about "Bay Area Startup News" than Hacker News, it has definitely always had a heavy capitalist slant. I'd go as far as to say it has more anti-capitalist sentiment now than it ever has had before.
CM30 8 hours ago [-]
So, how many countries will be left to participate in these competitions if FIFA doesn't change course? What about if even more national associations from non-European countries get involved?
Because in the 2026 world cup, every single team except Argentina in the quarter-finals onwards was a member of UEFA. And even in the earlier rounds, it was probably like 50 or so percent of them...
If neither side backs down before 2030, you may as well just call off the next World Cup. Especially given that two out of three hosts would also not be participating...
Quarrelsome 8 hours ago [-]
Africa, South America and Middle East football and maybe Oceania federations support it. North and Central American, Asian and Europe do not.
That's broad strokes as each member has an individual vote.
opinologo 7 hours ago [-]
If you look at the points per game, Conmebol was the top achiever with 1.77 points per match. Then UEFA (1.76) then Concacaf (1.21), CAF (1.07), AFC (0.66) and OFC (0.33)
Please note that penalty shoots are considered a draw.
If we are considering performance alone, Conmebol and UEFA should get more spots.
doomboiardee 6 hours ago [-]
FIFA wants to add 6 more hydration breaks per half..you know..for the players!
sizzzzlerz 9 hours ago [-]
Think of it this way. Should this proposal take effect, football will become the sporting world's equivalent to modern day Las Vegas.
3 hours ago [-]
senorrib 10 hours ago [-]
The European motorsports clubs should learn with UEFA and rollback the sale of the FIA to the Saudis.
andix 7 hours ago [-]
I think motorsports is going to fade away over time. Especially in car racing the technology got so advanced, that it's starting to get more and more boring.
If/When self driving cars become widely available, it might start to feel absurd and artificial.
I used to watch most F1 races as a kid. But it just doesn't feel interesting anymore.
ericcumbee 9 hours ago [-]
drop the second F in FIFA and change Infantino to Mohammed Ben Sulayem and it sounds familiar.
rimeice 10 hours ago [-]
UEFA should take over the World Cup.
dalemhurley 11 hours ago [-]
USA vs Australia grand final!
plandis 9 hours ago [-]
CONCACAF rejected the proposal too.
Maybe it will be Senegal vs Socceroos?
karmakaze 9 hours ago [-]
If FIFA was opensource now would be time to fork it.
hdaz0017 11 hours ago [-]
should wind FIFA up and create a less corrupt world body.
pelagicAustral 11 hours ago [-]
Outstanding. I hope the muscle through and make it happen.
paxys 13 hours ago [-]
Football/soccer is one place where Europe can easily flex their muscles against American capitalism and corruption. Good on them for saying it loud and clear.
tremon 12 hours ago [-]
I'm not convinced. There's plenty of large clubs in Europe owned by foreign capital and those clubs have already tried to push a pan-European league for themselves. I can see the FIFA using those teams as leverage to gain a foothold in Europe without UEFA.
* e.g. Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Paris SG, AC Milan and Inter Milan -- in Spain, individual clubs can't be owned by private equity but the La Liga corporation is)
9 hours ago [-]
jimbob45 12 hours ago [-]
This is a joke, right? I can’t think of any league as blatantly corrupt as FIFA on any level.
jotajota24 12 hours ago [-]
What are you on about? FIFA is not a league and certainly not in charge of european football
blahblaher 13 hours ago [-]
Good to see some "balls" can still be found
einrealist 13 hours ago [-]
Yes, but isn't football already overly commercialised? Why is advertising for sports betting or alcohol any better than the FIFA issue? UEFA should take a look at itself, too.
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
You can be against more than one thing.
jonplackett 10 hours ago [-]
This is. Very well written letter.
scaredreally 13 hours ago [-]
ELI5? What are the factors and implications?
xenospn 13 hours ago [-]
There is no World Cup without UEFA.
coffeebeqn 13 hours ago [-]
UEFA is Europe basically. So like the nexus of modern football
ahartmetz 13 hours ago [-]
7/10 of the currently top ranked national teams are UEFA members.
overfeed 12 hours ago [-]
UEFA's reach affects the remaining 3/10 and beyond. Nearly the same fraction of world cup players (68%) earn their livelihoods playing for European league teams- including many players representing non-European countries at the World Cup.
xxs 11 hours ago [-]
An even funnier fact is that players who play for clubs in Europe (UEFA) won't be allowed to represent their countries.
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
FIFA made ludicrous amounts of money as a non profit running the last World Cup and want to transition to a for profit corporation to make even more.
UEFA representing the European nations with the most competitive teams and many of the biggest stars, just told them good luck running a World Cup without us.
ratelimitsteve 11 hours ago [-]
like so many corrupt organizations lately, FIFA has been getting away with it for a long time and they overplayed their hand. this was a long time coming and i'm really glad to see it.
whateveracct 13 hours ago [-]
CONCACAF too
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
Right, IIRC they basically banned everybody in Trinidad from FIFA and relocated the HQ.
It didn't help that Chuck Blazer just looked like a pedophile. Not sure if it's a coincidence that he lived in Trump tower. He had two apartments there, one for his cats.
j45 11 hours ago [-]
I wonder if this might lead to UEFA and othe similar orgs simply banding together to create their own FIFA.
mmooss 6 hours ago [-]
Here's a look at FIFA's finances, "Where the money comes from and where it goes". I've always wondered where the billions go (and for the Olympics too):
I don't even like football and I want to see Infantino go down.
shevy-java 9 hours ago [-]
Greed is ruining football. Granted, this happened before that
already, we also saw this in olympics in general - but FIFA
now pushed this onto a new level. This is trying to leech off
of people now. After all, without people there would be no FIFA.
They are leeching here.
ktallett 13 hours ago [-]
The FA's worldwide don't need FIFA, they can set up a new world tournament. You will get a lot of poor nations who stick with FIFA for the cash but at the end of the day without European teams the world cup and FIFA will have minimal value. 5 of the last 6 world cup winners were european and it will only get more biased towards Europe. Argentina post Messi have no chance, and Brazil are the furthest away from winning than they ever have been.
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
There will be no cash for the poor nations without the European teams competing.
Izikiel43 13 hours ago [-]
> Argentina post Messi have no chance
Hold my beer
ktallett 13 hours ago [-]
Spain have a far more youthful side, who can easily win again. France will come back, as will England. Argentina have few players coming through and many stars will have retired by the next tournament, even youthful Alvarez will be 30 next time out.
paxys 12 hours ago [-]
FAs coming together and creating a new FIFA will just mean you get another organization that is exactly as corruption-ridden as FIFA. There's no point starting fresh if you don't fix the underlying problem.
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
Europe is where all the money is made in football. UEFA just want more of the pie.
FIFA is a repulsive pit of corruption but UEFA isn't much better.
Remember Blatter and Platini?
jen20 12 hours ago [-]
Blatter was president of FIFA, not UEFA.
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
Yes, and when Blatter was investigated for corruption both he and Platini, president of UEFA, were banned.
This was barely 10 years ago, it's not ancient history.
Platini is still suing Infantino now.
jen20 11 hours ago [-]
In even more recent history, both were cleared by a court of wrongdoing [1]. Infantino is clearly worse in every respect.
Who can decide the precedence of a louse and a flea?
11 hours ago [-]
kzrdude 12 hours ago [-]
And Infantino has been in high leadership in UEFA (not president), then FIFA
amelius 10 hours ago [-]
I wonder how often this guy's name is mispronounced as "Infantilo".
baalimago 13 hours ago [-]
It seems like Europe, yet again, have to stand up for ethics, morality and try to deflect corruption. It's so tiresome.
hdgvhicv 13 hours ago [-]
It’s standing up for football. Far more important.
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
This is UEFA we are talking about.
Remember that when (FIFA president) Blatter was investigated for corruption, (UEFA president) Platini was also banned.
tremon 12 hours ago [-]
...and Infantino was the UEFA secretary under Platini before taking Blatter's place as head of FIFA.
t0mpr1c3 11 hours ago [-]
It's almost like you cut the head off a snake, and it grows back a slimier and more poisonous head.
cccbbbaaa 13 hours ago [-]
Well, FIFA is also an European organization. Swiss, to be exact.
dgellow 13 hours ago [-]
It’s located in Switzerland, but it’s a global organization and has really close ties with the US president
secretsatan 13 hours ago [-]
Sorry to be a pedant, while switzerland is in the european landmass, it is not a member of the EU.
triceratops 13 hours ago [-]
Sorry to be a pedant too but no one said EU.
Carbon1603 13 hours ago [-]
You don't understand, good things come from the EU, bad things come from those filthy non-EU Europeans.
Barrin92 11 hours ago [-]
International companies and institutions parking their money in Switzerland genuinely have as much to do with Europe as Russian Oligarchs in London have with the United Kingdom. The country's always been a financial haven for oligarchs, it doesn't tell you much about the rest of the continent.
Infantino who seems to oscillate between Qatar and Switzerland I assume has a rather strenuous connection to the rest of Europe
javier2 13 hours ago [-]
Maybe. But we take football quite seriously.
13 hours ago [-]
jkingsbery 13 hours ago [-]
Isn't Infantino European?
efdee 13 hours ago [-]
Swiss.
dataengineer56 59 minutes ago [-]
Switzerland is in Europe
rsynnott 12 hours ago [-]
Okay, got to admit I did _not_ have “Trump breaks the World Cup” on my bingo card.
verdverm 12 hours ago [-]
E is for everything TTD
baggachipz 12 hours ago [-]
I mean he breaks everything, so....
shark1 12 hours ago [-]
Wow! You have my respect, UEFA.
onesandofgrain 13 hours ago [-]
..
triceratops 13 hours ago [-]
You seem to believe things that bring people joy are a waste of human potential. Please explain. Are we only meant to be machines that produce 16/7?
13 hours ago [-]
kreyenborgi 13 hours ago [-]
I wish sports would be sports, business be business, and politics politics. Whenever they mix, it is for the worse.
hn_submit 12 hours ago [-]
I find the UEFA standpoint a little disingenuous since commercial interests have been a top priority in football (soccer) for decades. Claiming that allowing investors to participate will hurt the sport are at the very least a misrepresentation of the current situation.
Although I disagree with his methods and goals I enjoy watching the way Infantino uses power play to stack the cards in his favor.
The only way for the UEFA to reclaim authority would be to demand two-thirds voting rights. The model of "one country, one vote" clearly works to UEFA's disadvantage even though its clubs contribute the majority of FIFA's income.
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
Yes, it's a stretch to believe that UEFA is objecting strictly on a point of principle.
UEFA seems to think people have forgotten that they tried to buy off top teams from the national organizations into a European super league.
In effect they did it anyway with CL.
11 hours ago [-]
bl0b 11 hours ago [-]
The super league wasn't UEFA's doing at all. The top clubs themselves tried to break away and self-organize, and they ultimately won some concessions from UEFA (new CL format, more CL money to the big teams)
bwnkl 11 hours ago [-]
I think they meant the original idea of the European Super League from the 1980s (that preceded the Champions League)
11 hours ago [-]
faramarz 8 hours ago [-]
They’re not against the economics of it. It’s carefully worded against private governance.
According to aljazeera's article, "the core investor would be a New York venture capital investment firm created by Joshua Kushner, the brother of US President Donald Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner."
ChrisArchitect 12 hours ago [-]
Welcome. Not a dupe if some time has passed between submissions without much discussion or upvotes. And this is the source.
Welcome. Not a dupe if some time has passed between submissions without much discussion or upvotes. And this is the source.
Ekaros 13 hours ago [-]
FIFA is just upholding western values. Profit, exploitation and money over everything else. They with FIA and likes are just showing the world what truly matters for western world.
tmgldn 13 hours ago [-]
Put it this way - Europeans don't generally call themselves from "the West" in 2026 - it's an American geopolitical fantasy.
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
To be fair, China and Russia participate in the fantasy.
paxys 13 hours ago [-]
American values, not western.
11 hours ago [-]
marcosdumay 13 hours ago [-]
US values, from the culture of the last 40 years.
orangedog 13 hours ago [-]
We're really going to act like the entire world doesn't have issues with this.
Given this is a worldwide institution dealing with this, I think you are both casting the new too small.
Famously before either the US or Western world, these values were never celebrated.
xhevahir 13 hours ago [-]
Or maybe not, since it's Europe who are objecting here?
callamdelaney 13 hours ago [-]
Yet it’s the very west uefa protesting.. right
tedggh 12 hours ago [-]
Why is this out of the gate bad? Note that this is not taking FIFA to private equity, but creating an investors owned subsidiary to run events and commercial operations where the non profit arm will still own 80% of it. With the right protections it could help FIFA make more money and reinvest in the sport, particularly women’s football. FIFA currently makes 40% of what the NHL makes, not the NFL, not NBA. Soccer is by far the most popular sport on the planet, the fact that it makes a lot less money than hockey is insane.
jotajota24 12 hours ago [-]
Why is it bad to sell 20% of the biggest tournament in the world to a private company lead by people involved with the most corrupt administration in the history of the US? The model has been working fine for decades, why does it matter that it makes less than american sports?
faramarz 8 hours ago [-]
Ha! Model has been working for American s.. more and more we are seeing signs of a falling empire. Not reading the room - I mean global - temperature is nothing new to the US foreign policy office. They’ve done it for decades, but these days the confidence in leadership has fully eroded trust. Before there may have been closed door jokes made US leaderships expense, now it’s out and in public.
Market Strategists are going to study this one. It’s a potential inflection point. Cant think of any other event or entity as globally galvanizing that football.
tedggh 12 hours ago [-]
The most beloved, most watched sport in the world making less than the American/Canadian hockey league is a commercial failure. Non profits are generally inefficient at running businesses. With the right guardrails a private arm that knows how to run a business could help FIFA make a ton of money. And yes a lot of rich guys will become even richer too, so what?
RAM-bunctious 11 hours ago [-]
But FIFA is the governing body of a sport, not a business.
Hearing you say this is like hearing someone say that the United Nations is a commercial failure.
Its purpose is to regulate and administer international football on behalf of its member associations, enforce compliance with its regulations, organise international competitions to relieve the member associations of the hassle, administer anti-doping programmes and related integrity measures (lol), and, through its membership of IFAB, help determine and promote the consistent application of the Laws of the Game worldwide. Its revenues only exist to support those functions.
Is there a need for it to have profit motive? Would the world be better if it decided it should have one? I don't see how the answer could be yes to either question.
The mention of guardrails is a little Onion-esque given the organisation and people in question
tedggh 11 hours ago [-]
The UN is a poor analogy. The UN does not operate a large commercial business like FIFA which exploits the World Cup, Libertadores and other events. The only strong similarity they have is their non profit status. You should have used the IOC as analogy.
triceratops 12 hours ago [-]
> help FIFA make a ton of money
It's a non-profit. So who cares? Why is more money automatically good?
> making less than the American/Canadian hockey league is a commercial failure
They aren't alike. The NHL doesn't happen once every 4 years.
kzrdude 12 hours ago [-]
The point of Fifa is not to make money. The point of it is to further the interests of the sport.
Besides, your tally of sports incomes is wrong since you didn't include UEFA revenue, which is also football money, in the count.
tedggh 11 hours ago [-]
FIFA controls the largest event, so it should be the driving force for revenue but it’s not. But even if you add UEFA the whole thing still less profitable than an American professional and barely surpasses hockey. By the way, UEFA crying about this while they are the owners, regulators and revenue distributors is pretty crazy. It seems to me they are more concerned about not being able to hop on the FIFA deal themselves.
monkey_monkey 11 hours ago [-]
FFS this is getting fucking tiresome.
Do you not understand that FIFA and UEFA are a small component of the actual revenue of football? They are not all of football. This is not complicated.
triceratops 5 hours ago [-]
And his claim is fundamentally incorrect. The latest edition of the WC made more money than the NBA, leave alone the NHL.
notahacker 10 hours ago [-]
> The most beloved, most watched sport in the world making less than the American/Canadian hockey league is a commercial failure.
Fortunately the English top division alone makes a similar amount to NHL (from a quarter of the matches) and the English second tier makes a similar amount to the Super Bowl[1], which is why football's governing body doesn't particularly need lessons on how to commercialize stuff from people in the United States who probably also don't understand football's financial centre of gravity, but will happily buy commercialization rights for a quadrennial tournament if sold to them in a backroom deal at a sufficiently low price...
[1]yes, I know the Super Bowl is only the one game. But if you can compare a 1400 game annual league to a 104 game quadrennial tournament, then I can compare an entire season to a single big game :D)...
tzs 9 hours ago [-]
> The most beloved, most watched sport in the world making less than the American/Canadian hockey league is a commercial failure.
Soccer leagues make a total of about 5-6x as much as the NHL. The Premier League alone makes 25% more than the NHL.
rassimmoc 12 hours ago [-]
guardrails, yea pedotrump pissed all over existing guardrails in this wc. and you want to sell him a piece of fifa :D
gspr 11 hours ago [-]
Good thing it's a sport and not a commercial operation then!
LocalH 11 hours ago [-]
> a commercial failure
Not everything has to have the teeth of capitalism continually biting down harder and harder. Plateaus are ok (and this is nowhere near a plateau)
sailingparrot 11 hours ago [-]
You are comparing apple and oranges, it makes no sense.
> Soccer is by far the most popular sport on the planet, the fact that it makes a lot less money than hockey is insane.
Soccer makes much much more money than the NHL, it just doesn't all go to FIFA because the vast majority of matches are not organized by FIFA.
The premier league alone makes more than the NHL and that's just one of the european countries. La ligua, bundesliga also each make close to what the NHL makes with much smaller populations.
The fair comparison to FIFA is the IIHF. They make $35M for the hockey world championships vs 15B for the football world cup, you are slightly off, a rounding error.
triceratops 12 hours ago [-]
> FIFA currently makes 40% of what the NHL makes, not the NFL, not NBA.
FIFA holds one significant money-making tournament for a month every 4 years (all due respect to the Women's World Cup in terms of prestige, but its revenue is a small fraction of the Men's World Cup). The NHL runs 6 months a year annually.
mattm 11 hours ago [-]
Closer to 10 months actually - Oct (Sept if you include the pre-season) through June.
But just to add on for comparison, the NHL has 1312 regular season games. Plus 4 rounds of best-of-7 playoff series with 16 teams making the playoffs. Let's say an average of 5.75 games per round, that's 86 playoff games bringing us to ~1400 games per year.
Over 4 years, that's 5600 games. The FIFA World Cup had 104 games this year. It's actually pretty impressive that the WC can even make 40% while hosting < 2% of the games that the NHL has. Or put another way, 1 WC game is equivalent to 54 NHL games - 2/3 of one team's full regular season.
tedggh 12 hours ago [-]
That’s part of their poor commercial vision. Even the World Cup brings less revenue than one season of the NBA. Doesn’t even make sense to compare it with the NFL.
triceratops 12 hours ago [-]
Again, it doesn't last as long as one season of the NBA or play as many games.
A single NBA season has over 1200 games - over 12 times as many games as the most recent World Cup (104). And that was already the largest-ever WC. Does the NBA have 12x the revenue of the WC?
> Even the World Cup brings less revenue than one season of the NBA
This isn't even true btw. The 2026 WC made $15b and the 2025-26 NBA season made $14.3 billion. [1][2]
Most of the WC's participating teams represent places poorer than the places NBA teams hail from.
You can't run the World Cup like the NBA. That's not how the sport works.
So what. The point of the World Cup is a worldwide celebration of soccer, interchange of culture. It belongs to the people.
It's one of the only things left whose purpose is not just to make as much money as possible.
nephihaha 8 hours ago [-]
The Qatar World Cup tournament was obviously such a thing. The place had the money to build all the stadiums, but has never qualified legitimately and is a tiny country. Thousands of people died building those stadiums in Qatar.
Plus there is advertising all over the players' clothing, the pitch, the pitchside hoardings etc. There is high rent advertising in every break. Even more so since theze silly hydration breaks.
bl0b 5 hours ago [-]
I mean, of course you're right about all of that. (The Qatar world cup was more for 'sportswashing' than extracting profit, although FIFA itself still made plenty of money. And, the hydration breaks will hopefully be a thing of a the past, because it was so obvious what they were really for. But I'm not betting on that.)
It just sucks that everything good and sacred in the world (soccer and everything else) is being squeezed and shittified for profit. So if FIFA is prevented from converting from a non-profit with the nominal purpose of being a steward of the game for its own stake into a fully explicit for-profit capitalistic enterprise, then I'll take the victory. Even if the current system is far from perfect.
stodor89 5 hours ago [-]
> Soccer is by far the most popular sport on the planet, the fact that it makes a lot less money than hockey is insane.
FIFA is (1) on paper, not there to make money, but (2) in reality, obscenely corrupt.
Worldwide, association football makes more than all other sports you referenced, combined.
I hope this is UEFA taking a principled stand, but maybe there's some weird scheme going on, let's see what happens next.
millhouse_ams 12 hours ago [-]
NHL/NFL/NBA are national leagues, the FIFA world cup a tournament that takes place every four years. You’re comparing apples and pears.
xxs 11 hours ago [-]
As a pundit - more 'water works', the addition in the last world cup was beyond lame.
>FIFA currently makes 40% of what the NHL makes,
That's entirely irrelevant, if FIFA even makes zero - most of the money is in the local leagues. FIFA is just there for the world cup
warkdarrior 12 hours ago [-]
> Soccer is by far the most popular sport on the planet, the fact that it makes a lot less money than hockey is insane.
Maybe fans would prefer that it stayed that way.. making just enough money to keep the sport going, without the profit motive.
rassimmoc 12 hours ago [-]
don't be naive. Never in the history of humanity did corrupt billionaire pedophiles do anything help the sport/fans/women/..... They want a piece to get the foot in the door. 10 years from now, we wont even recognise football anymore.
I don't care what american billionaires make with nhl/nfl/..., hands fucking off of football.
nephihaha 8 hours ago [-]
Association football is more marketable than certain North American sports. For a start, the jerseys are covered in sponsors, even the shorts, socks and shoes. American football and basketball, for whatever reason, haven't done that yet.
It looks like this world cup may have introduced shirt sponsorship to US and Canadian sports. Soon their shirts will resemble Formula One drivers'. In return, association football will keep hydration breaks etc.
monkey_monkey 11 hours ago [-]
> Soccer is by far the most popular sport on the planet, the fact that it makes a lot less money than hockey is insane.
The NFL makes much less money than nVidia The world has gone mad! That's just insane.
glitchc 13 hours ago [-]
Cue UEFA's leadership being replaced in the next year or two. FIFA has had a taste of the amount of money involved in professional sports. There's no going back.
CodingJeebus 13 hours ago [-]
50 of the 55 member UEFA states took the floor to express their outrage at FIFA, this is not a matter of UEFA leadership being out of touch. The vast majority of the confederation is ready to walk.
glitchc 12 hours ago [-]
I understand that this is a principled stand by UEFA, no doubt about it. But the amount of money in the offering is too large for the clubs (and their superstars) to snub their noses at it. When it comes down to money, principles are the first to be bought and sold.
CodingJeebus 10 hours ago [-]
I don't think you do understand, because the nation associations involved (not clubs) have resoundingly rejected this plan. First UEFA has announced their complete boycott, now CONCACAF has rejected it. This is DOA and Infantino just gave the delegation a huge reason to run a candidate against him in the upcoming elections.
t0mpr1c3 12 hours ago [-]
FIFA has been spectacularly corrupt since at least thd 1970s, and UEFA is not far behind.
When Blatter was kicked out of FIFA for corruption, the USA provided a legal venue for the investigation. Between Infantino and Trump you would think that is off the table.
The problem with that is that it then it is no longer a sport, rather a... business.
UEFA letter is spot on.
By comparison UEFA sounds a lot stronger.
> You're excluding about half of the planet by only mentioning Africa.
It's the half of the planet that nobody cares about when it comes to football.
Now if only that could put a dent in Infantino reelection...
To be a bit cynical on this, I'm going to say that UEFA is worried the international scene will infringe on the European league scene.
They've found something to be outraged about, but the reality is more about the threat to their own bottom line than it is about the international game.
Take away the money and FIFA doesn’t have much to bargain with. They need to remember they are a purely administrative organization.
The game is already as global as it gets, 1.5bn people watched the wc final…
I think any large multi-national organisation that deals with handing out events that generate vast sums of money inevitably succumbs to the rot.
See also: the IOC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
It makes no sense to me that people favored the (much) worse product because “tradition”.
Competition gets boring real fast when it is always the same handful of teams. When there are no real consequences to losing, winning becomes meaningless.
Bayern v Chelsea matches stop being as interesting when every game is a Bayern v Chelsea match and most of them have no real impact either way. On the other hand, football becomes most interesting when it's a Bayern v Bremen and Bremen wins. People love an underdog after all, and nothing is more exciting than seeing an elite team take the game for granted and being punished for it.
The Super League is only a more interesting product from the "big name play ball" perspective. It is great when you want to make a fortune in tv rights and licensing, but it sucks for everyone who cares about football as a sport.
Even there it’s still not really true that the best team can lose to the worst team in any given night. The best team is generally favored a lot and justifiably so. In soccer teams can also be quite mismatched and a lucky goal by the worse team can be the only score and win the match.
We should still be frustrated by it, but I think I get what they were getting at.
The US is a vast market. It's played a lot in the US as well. The MLS also not a tiny league. Football is also huge in Mexico.
Hugo Sanchez was truly a legend. Among many.
Ah. This boondoggle makes sense now.
Yes I hear about that a lot. Yuk
But I also hear that FIFA puts a lot of resources into developing the game in African countries.
I am asking: Is that true in your experience?
So it used to be that there were pre-tournament games, to qualify.
A lot of countries... they wouldn't qualify. They'd play an ample amount of pre-tournament games though.
Now, you seen more countries qualify, and you see countries who used to not qualify, dropping ASAP (in the deathmatch 16th matches, right after poule).
So what did we get out of that? A few matches during the tournament, and they were quite frankly meaningless.
These countries which made it to deathmatch 1/16th gained nothing. It is a scam, a trick. They think they gained fame, but they really have not, since the barrier to get to the deathmatch has been lowered.
Furthermore, if you follow a corrupt scheme, you can ensure a country like Argentina is going to have the least chance to end up with strong opponents.
No, mr. Infantino. We need less corruption in FIFA, not more.
* We don't want a drink break to watch commercials..
* ..or a 30 min break with a bunch of actors (who sing with autotune) when your own rules say it may only be a 15 min break.
* We don't want red cards commutated or revoked.
* We don't want star players not getting yellow or red card, when other players are getting one for the same foul.
* We don't want a yellow card being reversed, then given to an opponent, based on 'identity mismatch'.
* We don't want to see racism or political statements.
* We don't want to see rugby, we want to see football.
* We want to see fair-play, with a meaningful VAR which can be called by the captain or coach of each team twice (getting back their call if agreed on).
You don't need a for-profit in your chain to fix the above. You need a non-profit with a non-corrupt chair, and you've proven you're not fit. Red card for you, mr. Infantino. You're out, arrivederci.
> So what did we get out of that? A few matches during the tournament, and they were quite frankly meaningless.
The answer for FIFA is of course money. More countries, more games, more money.
But the non-cynical answer is that all of those countries got to see their teams play 3 World Cup games. Some got to see more than that. I would bet that many of those countries’ citizens are very happy with the expanded tournament, and good for them. We also got Cape Verde this year, who many people around the world were excited for.
I am not sure what your problem with Argentina is, but with a meaningful VAR, Cucurella would have been sent off and Enzo Fernandez would have stayed on the pitch. I am sick of the anti-Argentina racist campaign. Just follow the amount of yellow and red cards they were given in their last three games in the WC.
Cucurella did not violate the rule. He touched his mouth for an instant. The rule is not “if you ever touch your mouth you get ejected”, which is why VAR didn’t do anything and neither did the ref on the field.
I generally have nothing against Argentina but they were wildly outplayed in the last game, they were disrespectful, and Messi’s appeal to the ref to try to get Cucurella ejected was shameful.
Regardless of rhetoric about "not to be sold", the bigger issue is that this looks like a very bad financial arrangement for a sport that is awash with funds already so doesn't need to sell its future revenues off cheaply or learn how to make money from PE, but probably a good deal for Infantino and chums. Corruption at FIFA is nothing new, but a behind-closed-doors sweetheart deal for a large fraction of their future revenue was really pushing at boundaries ...
And Infantino had become so convinced of his own genius he thought that giving member states a fait accompli, a ticking clock and an indication that most of the money would go to states that voted yes (and a financial deal that would be an attractive bung to the 100 or so FIFA members with no chance of actually qualifying, but shrinks the future revenue stream for everyone else) would actually fly.
Plus UEFA already makes more money than FIFA, could happily organize a rival competition attracting more top teams from the rest of the world and sponsorship money if it came to that, and had a unique opportunity to flex where fans and clubs would be universally behind them...
So this will now be the new norm. Host countries will be ones where laws don’t prohibit gouging fans. They’ll come up with creative solutions to meet the rotation requirement like the upcoming host a couple games in South America farce that’s allowing them to go to Saudi Arabia after that. They’ll continue to push the boundaries of decency until they get sufficient pushback.
For all the problems in Qatar's world cup, a fan could watch two games a day, live,because the stadiums were that close. The 2026 bid maximized distances about as much as one could, vs, say, at least limit it all to the west coast, which would still be a lot by normal standards, bout would mean fewer huge metros where you could dip your toe in and ask for a ton of money, as there'd be very few games there.
And again, we are talking a team that won, and was among the favorites to win from day 1, just not being able to fill 1/3rd of the stadium, or anything close.
It’s sad though. The World Cup, while imperfect, remains an event that brings the world together. We don’t have many of those left.
But there's always a breaking point... hopefully.
Therefore, someone has to be left out. That can be decided multiple ways, but there is no philosophical reason that money being the deciding factor is wrong. We use that mechanism for almost everything else in the world. It's the worst system...except for all the others.
If the problem is the size of the wealth gap between people, that's wholly unrelated to sports game tickets, and in the purview of government policy.
Not as much as the popular culture makes out. Association football (as opposed to folk football) was codified in English private schools such as Uppingham, and at Cambridge University. Working class people played very different forms of football at the time, including carrying the ball etc. Association football was the more genteel form of the game. It used to be the main sport at Eton College, not rugby.
Infantino & Trump's corruption is literally driven by greed. not the good greed - but just bad, power hungry insatiable greed.
Got friends working for them as developers. They ran away. In months
Trump and Kushners
"Joshua Kushner is now the kingpin in driving the sale of the World Cup to investors and family ties are tight around the project"[1]
1. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2026/jul/30/fifas-sale-...
A private company answers only to shareholders.
They are no strangers to certain aspects of it. /s
Interesting parallels to OpenAI.
For a second, I thought the Americanization[1] of fùtbol would be done gradually and no one would complain as we'd be slowly boiled. I'm glad the corrupt bastards got greedy/impatient and took a big swing.
1. Sports primarily as a business, catering to owners first, sponsors second, broadcasters third, and then lastly, fans. IMO non-profit sports organizations are the best model for fans, who I identify the most with.
The $15 billion figure is for FIFA's ENTIRE 2023-2026 revenue cycle, so not just this World Cup. But the obvious "low-hanging fruit" was making the tournamenta lot larger (104 matches instead of Qatar's 64), so a lot more tickets, hospitality sales, ads etc
Also two 3 minute hydration breaks per match, giving broadcasters additional advertising windows.
That's your "optimization".
But the only way they 10x is to start running more FIFA competitions, and that's when they encroach on UEFA's cash cows...
Hah and because Pizza Hut wants exposure, it'll come out more and more.
The game was already hurt this world cup with the flow destroying „hydration breaks“ to sell more ads.
This last world cup was the worse I've ever seen since 1978, almost 50 years, and I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. We all know billions are moved under the table, but money can never break rules and traditions, specially if they don't benefit fans and players above all
Did anybody ask the players about the hydration break? About increasing teams to 48, now to 64? More games is more possibility of injuries and benched players are no good for the show. So always be careful about wanting more golden eggs, the goose may be exhausted already
More teams means more underdogs, more chances for greatness and more high points. I know it was purely for money, but I think the move to 48 teams really worked.
Agreed with both you and parent on the commercial, I mean hydration, breaks. What a disaster.
The narrative that Cape Verde is a beneficiary of the 48-team setup is completely and utterly false.
It's an excuse to squeeze more money out of the brand with a lower quality product.
It's shrinkflation.
And that would become worse with investors.
Not only for host nations but for the players and fans too
"The 2026 FIFA World Cup was the hottest World Cup since the competition began in 1930. A Guardian analysis found that close to 20 percent of matches were played under heat and humidity conditions that FIFPRO, the players' union, has flagged as dangerous enough to warrant delaying or postponing play. Some 20 games were played at wet bulb globe temperatures that hit or exceeded 28 degrees Celsius (82 Fahrenheit)." - Katharine Hayhoe's newsletter
MLS already has a system where a game has a break only when it reaches 28deg C for a period of x minutes
Whether a national team qualifies isn’t that strongly correlated to whether the sport is popular. Most of south and Central America are as fanatical as Brazil or Argentina, but they were not in the tournament.
Nobody likes Infantino.
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_corruption_case
That said, a World Cup without any of the 55 UEFA countries wouldn’t make sense commercially.
In addition to them all knowing that a World Cup without UEFA isn't going to happen, they also weren't impressed by being presented with a fixed offer and a ticking clock rather than an opening of negotiations....
Depending on whether the South American teams show up…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_cup_winners.svg
Hint: the same one who act like strongmen on the field.
(Though AFAIK they haven’t yet threatened a boycott.)
His son in law is running the investment firm https://apnews.com/article/world-cup-fifa-investors-kushner-...
In turn Trump wants to nominate Infantino for Secretary General of UN https://www.euronews.com/2026/07/22/trumps-pick-for-the-next...
I think it’s important to clarify the incentives at play, people are rarely evil for the sake of being evil
At some point you genuinely are just being dodgy purely for the love of the game
No clue how people fall for that.
Sepp Blatter for crying out loud.
Like, mmm, Lance Armstrong, after he got caught.
Edit: I just realized you meant who here on hn, in which case I assume the hardcore capitalists/libertarians. But they can speak for themselves.
I say that but I also agree i dont think fifa or any of the regional orgs need more or any financial incentives. Keep profits for the club, keep the governing body to governing, and the regional orgs to organizing.
I actually think this is an area where the us could do a lot of good - sweep in, clean out fifa and as many of the regional orgs as you're able (they're connected), and keep the pressure on. Only the US is really able to do this and we hate cheating in sports.
Not non-profit per se, but the Bundesliga[1] requires that teams are majority owned by club members and investors are limited to minority ownership.[2]
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesliga
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50+1_rule
These clubs are often very old as well, and often were small regional clubs that got big, so they are significant in their cities and do a ton more than just football.
Yes
> These words apply to any investment [...] the entire culture has to change
I think that's fatalistic. There are plenty of people and legal structures that limit the influence of investors to reasonable returns, most famously founders retaining control, or the public benefit corporation (like Veeva) or nonprofit (OpenAI as the counter-example showing how even structures are no guarantee). It's all part of setting up the systems to work with available people, within the business leader's ambit.
They could host a tournament without the pay-to-win arbitrary overruling of red cards and the clownish half time entertainment. Nobody would care about the FIFA World Cup.
Fork it!
https://www.uefa.com/running-competitions/financial-distribu...
97% returns to the club and 9.3% is ear marked for football development programs.
Some of the money is utilized as reimbursement to clubs that did not manage to qualify.
PS Treating HN like a search engine is not constructive. No flak tho, I also do this sometimes.
[1]used as aporetic or perhaps even epiplectic device
They have everything to win. It's opposite of the PGA/LIV situation, the breakout group have the stronger trademark and the better teams. It's baffling that UEFA didn't move in already when FIFA was too greedy even for EA, which is saying something.
Where did Infantino come from? Answer: UEFA
And for that matter, which continent did his predecessor Sepp Blatter start his football admin career in? Hint: he's not from Asia or Africa
Probably the most widely admired admin in big-time football right now is al-Khalifa, the head of PSG. A Qatari. You know - those guys who organized by common consent is considered the best World Cup in modern times (during which EUROPEAN teams were ostentatiously protesting on the pitch - while keeping VERY quiet WHEN playing a World Cup in a country who is still facilitating an ONGOING GENOCIDE) .
And from reports, he doesn't want to touch FIFA with a 10 foot barge pole.
Europe had managed to keep the lions share of footballs global revenues to itself, while keeping Africa as basically a "football nursery" where teenagers get almost trafiked across Europe before 90% are discarded.
This is one of the reasons why a (corrupt, mendacious & sly) Infantino had some support across Africa & Asia. Because he played off that imbalance. Rather like one mafioso giving you "protection" against another mafia mob.
Just saying, Europe & UEFA arent necessarily the angels in any of this ...
It's mystifying that this claim can be made ambiguously to more than one former World Cup host.
Hard to think of a modern institution as corrupt as fifa. That may not bother too many people because it’s not their government, but I just think it stinks
I backslid this year, but did completely boycott watching in 2018 and 2022. Russia is a pariah state and should never have been allowed to host, and Qatar was manifestly unsuitable.
The only difference this year is that the bribery and political favors were out in the open.
Every stadium was within a 30 mile radius and fans reported a clean, safe experience. Sounds like a good place for a tournament to me.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60867042
> 50 foreign labourers died and more than 500 others were seriously injured in 2021 alone, while another 37,600 suffered mild to moderate injuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_issues_involving_...
>> Slavery
> Yes it's bad.
Are you just learning about the slavery or did you know about it when you asked why.
Saudi Arabia and the UAE have similar records on human rights and treatment of foreign workers.
Further afield there's Mauritania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania#Modern_slavery
Like antisemitism, its overuse has rendered it toothless.
"Putin's apologist" as a smear on those who reject the mainstream narrative about Ukraine war (even if highly critical of Russia/Putin) is a better match.
That Russia is worse should not shield the US from criticism.
IOC is about the only organisation that comes close to it I think.
Their suggestion is to open up the power structure, e.g. to all past players/Olympians.
Switzerland might not be corrupt, but they are fine with enabling it.
Switzerland has an unusually direct democracy, which keeps their house in order. Maybe it's also what allows Switzerland to benefit from crime and corruption without getting infected with the rot.
<Formula 1 has joined the chat>
Also the treatment of the Iranian team was comically awful.
Yeah, but most of them go without president calling Infantino to change the referee verdict. All the while the president says "I dont even know the game".
> It was really well run. Not something you can call a “shit show”
I can. Oh and not allowing referee in due to his race and mistreating teams due to politics.
Ahhhh, you're American!
It's very weird for one type of football to try to claim the name all for itself globally.
BTW I am not American.
The US itself is far and away the world's biggest sporting nation, and many there see football's informality and cynicism as antiquated and, honestly, embarrassing. The world outside of the US wants to protect "their" game, though it's not theirs to begin with, ignoring the existing, systematic issues with it, even making contrived arguments about the word "soccer" itself.
FIFA's shenanigans off-the-field were a problem, but they're not unique to the World Cup nor its location. I'd argue the last Copa America and Cup of Nations had worse issues with officiating/corruption.
There are many other nations with just as much influence in sports outside of the US. The only difference being that the US doesn’t care about them.
Football is a global game, everyone’s, not another thing for the US to dictate and ruin.
Football (or basketball, if you're Lithuanian) is a massive cultural institution in many parts of the world. The difference is that sports—just sports—are the institution in America. We could look at revenues, but that's far too easy. Look at the whole picture. Look at youth participation, women's sports, college sports. It's not comparable anywhere else.
For football specifically, the current situation is that a handful of European countries control the best leagues and consistently have the best international squads. This isn't changing anytime soon. The game is already owned by a group of elite countries—almost exclusively in Europe, benefitting from geography, mutual competition, and visa gatekeeping—and one confederation (UEFA).
The fact that the game shouldn't be "ruined" (or latent anti-Americanism) suggests you're okay with this situation. You didn't comment on rule enforcement or cynical play either, but I assume you're okay with those things or take them for granted.
Americans see football through the lens of other sports, because we are a sporting culture, and football is one of many. All the "American" sports have their problems too, but we don't pretend they don't for phony reasons. But we also have choices and exercise those choices. Footballing nations, I get the impression, see all sports through the lens of football. I often wonder whether fans in footballing countries genuinely like their sport for what it is or whether it's just a narcissistic cultural inheritance.
Other than those awful hydration breaks, they didn't ruin it much. I didn't love the extended half time in the final, but I was only hate watching Argentina anyway so didn't care much. Better to have the standard interval but not egregious to extend in the final. Overall it was a good tournament, a proper "feast of football" as we used to say. Some fine-tuning to do with the VAR but even then there weren't as many egregiously unfair calls as in years past. (Croatia's disallowed goal being a memorable example because it was so rare.) Many, many good games and some memorable moments - Cape Verde!
besides a significantly more common 4-3-3, I can't think of anything I particularly found entertaining - the waterworks, the extra VARs, the super special offside line. That's no feast. (and I can continue)
Finals are boring more often than not. You just have to accept that. And when one of the team’s key skill is suffocating the other side, a game like that was to be expected. Only my mighty compatriots were able to crack the code… once.
- The extraordinary pricing of the tickets
- "Hydration breaks" to cater for TV advertising
- The US red card being rescinded after a phone call from an interested party
- Argentina's free pass throughout
FIFA has been corrupt since the days of João Havelange, although his stance was broadly to bring football to more countries and just needed a way to finance that (enter stage left, Coca-Cola, and stage right, Adidas and ISL), but it started getting really wild after him.
It's gone unchecked. There was talk of the English FA pulling out of UEFA and FIFA some years ago, as there was a perception the soul of the game had been tarnished by both orgs.
This is a good first step, and I hope FIFA gets itself sorted. I hope UEFA also gets its house in order.
There is a big difference between an intentional and not intentional foul. There was a touch but Messi did try to stop and is clear from the video. Stop the racist campaign.
>>Against England, Argentina were playing rugby again, and the ref just let it pass.
Against England they received more yellows even considering the amount of fouls. Go have a look a Harry Kane foul against Messi. No punishment.
>>Against Egypt, Egypt got a goal disqualified which.. was a goal.
It was a foul. Clearly shown on the video. Nobody is discussing that
>>Against Switzerland, a rule of identity mismatch was used wrongly (it can only be applied on same team).
That was a clear and blatantly obvious simulation. Embolo fauls magically without a touch. That destroys the game integrity. Stop the racist campaign. That was the referee understanding at that moment. It was re-clarified few days ago.
>>Argentina was lucky to end the final with 10 players and only 1 goal against. It should've been 9 players, with a 3-0 score, but the corrupt FIFA couldn't match-fix that part. It'd have been too obvious.
Argentina had an older squad, with a great keeper. Cucurella should have been sent off, same as the player from Paraguay from provoking and covering his mouth. You just spread hateful, racist messages. Good on you.
Second, the hydration (ads!) breaks were clearly used to tweak some tactics, player positionning, etc, making it another half-time. It's a strategic opportunity. Why not introduce a 2 min drill, then ? - yuck- That's not football.
Third, I won't talk about that specific red card or that penalty kick, but the fact that players and staff complained so much about the refereeing issues hurts the trust we can have into the game as a whole.
And that 27 min half-time... Seriously ?!
I’ve followed the sport all my life and referee complains I would say less than usual.
I like having more teams. Might even extend to 64 next time.
These are difference of opinion. Nothing singles out this world cup as a “shit show” as the OP. It was a great experience to me and pretty much anyone I encountered in the stadiums.
It was already introduced in the local women league...
Covert bullshit, like the Moreno care in South Korea, sure, but brazenly ignoring the rules like what happened with Balogun? I cannot remember it.
There was nothing egregious and it was widely attended.
Refusing entry to a Somali referee on the spurious grounds of links to terrorism was a disgrace.
The overturning of Falorin Balogun's ban was a disgrace.
The ticket prices were a disgrace. The transport to the stadiums was a shambles.
I could go on.
This bit was kind of baffling to me. Like, the US has a bunch of large stadiums. Presumably they sometimes get used for stuff. How is it not a constant disaster?
There’s a medium sized (50k capacity) stadium near me, and even _with_ a train station with a train each way every ten minutes right beside it, and within easy walking distance of about five high capacity bus routes, it’s always a bit of a shitshow when a big event finishes. I’ve no idea how it could work _at all_ if you’re just depending on buses and cars, which a bunch of the US stadiums seemed to be.
Now if only it had been a good half-time show...
My interpretation is it is 15 minutes unless the referee allows something else.
I ask in earnest. I'm not American. I know there's a huuugggee buzz on who gets to do the Superbowl half-time show. But they all look the same to me: overly-polished extravagant pop performances. That can be an insult or a compliment depending on your mood but I say that as a fact. That description applies to the WC half-time show too so I don't see what makes it bad. Maybe you can accuse it of being even more over-the-top and garishly extravagant but does that make it bad?
Bad Bunny's half-time show seems to be generally considered good. Well, he's a good performer definitely and performed his show well. But what makes that different from the universally-panned WC one?
For the record, Bad Bunny isn't even in my daily playlist. I do have Coldplay but Chris Martin was so peripheral to the WC spectacle I didn't even notice him during the live broadcast.
It feels to me there's something else merited here other than just the performance itself. Bad Bunny, given his background and off-stage activism, was largely seen as a political statement. The WC show just seems too foreign for the core non-Northern American market.
I watched the WC final in a noisy bar. During the halftime the bar had its own entertainment while a muted Justin Bieber playing his guitar emoted on the big screen. I've since watched it in Youtube and I still don't get the universal disdain for it. Maybe they should've called in a bunch of Eurovision performers?
Again, this is my point. WC hosts get to show something of themselves to the world. Half-time or pre-game shows are a part of American sports culture.
I feel like how I imagine golfers felt once LIV golf was announced.
Hydration breaks in air-conditioned stadiums?
A half-time show?
Football is more than just the world cup or the Championship league. It’s also about the local leagues or village clubs.
They all play the dame game and Fantino in his greed is ruining it.
Which fan could afford to watch all the games of his team?
- 48 teams is too much. 32 is a great sweet spot. 48 is ridiculous, it genuinely felt like too many games. - The completely inconsistent application of VAR was scandalous. I've always been a huge opponent of VAR in soccer, and I really feel vindicated. It felt like it was only used for very pointed decisions. Either you use VAR to make no mistakes at all, or you don't use it. - The "h2o breaks" were stupid as f. They were clearly only implemented to fit in more commercial breaks. - as usual, getting the tickets is always a nightmare, but it's been like that for 20+ years
There was some good football, I'm not even bothered by the pre/mid-game shows. There were a lot of good things, but honestly it did feel like it was in spite of everything that was done to make it unbearable.
I actually loved the 48 teams. It will probably expand to 64 next cup. More people tune in, nice surprises, upsets, cinderella stories.
Access and price of tickets has been a problem for a long time and getting worse for every live event. Not exclusive to the World Cup.
There are obviously things to improve but the game and experience for people watching and attending was pretty amazing. Leaving in the US I ve had fantastic interactions with strangers everywhere for weeks.
If that’s what a “shit show” is I’m looking forward to more ha ha
Coaches get in the face of the officials already anyway. This just gives the action a chance at being productive rather than an opportunity to get a red card.
Yes, this is based on the derided review system of Olympic Taekwondo. It's horrible in a fight sport but football is a ball game; somebody tell Paredes and Paraguay please.
This seems to have actual teeth. What's Infantino going to do to save face? No one cares about a world cup without the Europeans.
Second commentator: “It is true, Red Bull gives you wings. In this case, the wings only take you to the shower room.”
EDIT: not sure why i’m getting downvoted, they post up the injured player on the screens with a private medical company prominently displayed.
Who do you think is incentivized and how does that cause a player to get injured?
How about they create a new national league in the US, say called the National Football League and sell that to commercial interests then whoever wins that they can declare the best team in the world and therefore it is the world cup.
UEFA is all we need, make the best fight against the best in Europe and let fifa do it's shit.
Maybe we could do something like Europe - south America competition.
> Thrive is an American venture capital firm founded by Joshua Kushner - the brother of US President Donald Trump's son-in-law Jared.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c5y67zrrdddo
This is the closest where I can see a future where we have a rugby union / rugby league like schism.
Oh and guess who is behind the investment group: https://apnews.com/article/world-cup-fifa-investors-kushner-...
I can't say I think the halftime show is a big deal at all though.
Every single break time decision in football is arbitrary already.
At least with hydration breaks, everyone got them and they were the same for everyone. I know sports fans don't like change. If everything else about this WC was perfect I'd say "Fine, go ahead, complain". But this is the tiniest, most meaningless thing to moan about nearly 3 weeks after the tournament is done.
a few years ago when the momentum was moving towards tennis, some european clubs proposed a "super league" comprising of only the elite teams, the purpose was again to maximize ad profits (and i should go back to check who actually proposed it, who they were affiliated with). That time they were suggested not to proceed, or else they would be boycotted from all other events, the players too. That was also a good decision.
football (not handegg) it already corrupt enough as it is, and too much money is flowing into it, it's incredible and heart warming that there is still some dignity left in the associations.
This is like saying “customers aren’t worried enough about the corporate process - they only care about the end product!”
I'd say this is very, very common knowledge in huge parts of the world. It's not something only enthusiasts and purists know.
This is certainly something many people I know have cared a lot about - and again, I'm not a football enthusiast myself, but still the vast majority of the people I know are, because, not being one really is an outlier.
[0] https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/popular-sport/fans....
> There are plenty of stoppages in game already which take as much time.
Well. Not really. And those "stoppages" are part of the game. Actually watching the players quarrel with the referee and whatnot is something football fans want to do. It's not comparable.
… By non-fans do you mean people who have literally never heard of football, or something? I’m very far from a fan, no interest at all. But, I mean, I know there are two halves. Everybody knows that.
that’s what effectively made the hydration breaks turn it into a game of four quarters. lost count of the number of times teams completely changed their strategy after the breaks and went on to score goals etc.
you make the players drink the water from the centre of the field with no coaching staff present then it would have less of an impact. but there’s still an impact as all players can huddle together and discuss things together in a way they normally wouldn’t be able to without a severe stoppage ie a delay going on 5-10+ minutes, which is usually rare.
This is the thing that is too much? I just don't get it. The entire thing is a spectacle to sell ads.
A game having two main uninterrupted halves is one of those foundational facts. Players train for being able to play for that long without getting too thirsty to continue.
I don't often watch football outside the world cup. I don't support any teams. But I know how football is meant to be played, and I was definitely annoyed about the hydration breaks.
Does USA have people that don't follow american football but will watch the Superbowl? Would those people notice if there were three times as many breaks as usual?
Well...many if not most of the people who don't follow NFL and watch the Super Bowl are watching it for the half time show and ads, so more breaks would make them happy, heh.
It's the same way that Americans know what pitchers, catchers, and batters are in baseball even if they've never picked up a bat or a glove and only go to baseball games to eat hot dogs and get drunk on overpriced beer. Soccer has two halves like baseball has nine innings,a nd the vast majority of people do not want to mess with that.
A secondary reason that they don't want to mess with it is the perception that these hydration breaks are not organic (because it's always been acceptable for players to grab a drink fo water and there are ample opportunities to do so during a regular game), but that the breaks were imposed on the game to facilitate ad breaks in American TV broadcasts. Much of the world is tired of doing things differently just because the Americans want it.
- Football is not a game of easy scoring, often you have to build momentum, by relentlessly putting pressure on the other team. It's more important than in other sports, because in football a weaker team can easily earn a draw against a stronger team if the later fails to do just that.
Your attacks ( and defense efforts) must compound. It's almost like building a narrative inside the head of the players and inside the head of the spectators before a goal gives everyone a release one way or the other. Moreso than in other sports where you have a lot of scoring happening. Football is closer to watching an epic drama.
Now it's true that dynamics can change on a dime. But you often have to earn that change ( like by having a skilled player who attracts fouls ). Having regular breaks makes it almost like watching another sport.
- In most of Europe and South America even people who don't watch regular league games have an intuitive expectation of how a game should be played. And they care.
Especially when it comes to national teams because it's often a big part of the national lore. ( It's like the offside rule. Even people who despise the game end up being experts )
Rugby stoppages are beginning to get ridiculous but they aren't doing them for advertising yet.
Something similar happened with FIDE (chess) in the Kasparov years. I believe FIDE is still headquartered in a dodgy dictatorship in Central-asia-stan.
And I've lost count how many global boxing organizations there are, seemingly in competition with each other to minimize sporting legitimacy and financial transparency.
FIFA is famously corrupt. But now they don't bother trying to try to hide the corruption.
Nice! Next the more "unimportant" stuff already sold or about to be:
healthcare? education? public transportation? water? energy?
Infantino has been a disgrace, I hope they manage to get rid of him, but I have very little hope.
Does it? Who does it work out well for? Franchises continuously extort tax-payer funds for stadia,some team switches host cities every few years, and the for-profit corporations are legal cartels that decides who gets to own a team. The number of ad-breaks is horrendous to anyone who's watched sports elsewhere.
Lastly, football is a grassroots participation sport that is seen by its fans as more of a religion than a conventional act of entertainment. Of course, religion in the US is also often for-profit, but hopefully you get the point.
Internationally the standard is non-profits. Most sports have both their international organisations and highest standard of play organisations as non-profits - football, tennis, golf, cricket. The international components of baseball, american football, and basketball are all non-profits (though they are lower standards of play than the US internal leagues).
Oakland Raiders? not anymore! teams just leave to another city if the money is right. craziness.
the sheer number of ads and marketing.
what are you smoking?
Wow!
Goes off to have Claude look at the FIFA governance charter. This guy is so done!
Because in the 2026 world cup, every single team except Argentina in the quarter-finals onwards was a member of UEFA. And even in the earlier rounds, it was probably like 50 or so percent of them...
If neither side backs down before 2030, you may as well just call off the next World Cup. Especially given that two out of three hosts would also not be participating...
That's broad strokes as each member has an individual vote.
If/When self driving cars become widely available, it might start to feel absurd and artificial.
I used to watch most F1 races as a kid. But it just doesn't feel interesting anymore.
Maybe it will be Senegal vs Socceroos?
* e.g. Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Paris SG, AC Milan and Inter Milan -- in Spain, individual clubs can't be owned by private equity but the La Liga corporation is)
UEFA representing the European nations with the most competitive teams and many of the biggest stars, just told them good luck running a World Cup without us.
It didn't help that Chuck Blazer just looked like a pedophile. Not sure if it's a coincidence that he lived in Trump tower. He had two apartments there, one for his cats.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/7330307/2026/07/09/fifa-fin...
I don't even like football and I want to see Infantino go down.
Hold my beer
FIFA is a repulsive pit of corruption but UEFA isn't much better.
Remember Blatter and Platini?
This was barely 10 years ago, it's not ancient history.
Platini is still suing Infantino now.
[1]: https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44397617/ex-fifa-chie...
Remember that when (FIFA president) Blatter was investigated for corruption, (UEFA president) Platini was also banned.
Infantino who seems to oscillate between Qatar and Switzerland I assume has a rather strenuous connection to the rest of Europe
Although I disagree with his methods and goals I enjoy watching the way Infantino uses power play to stack the cards in his favor.
The only way for the UEFA to reclaim authority would be to demand two-thirds voting rights. The model of "one country, one vote" clearly works to UEFA's disadvantage even though its clubs contribute the majority of FIFA's income.
UEFA seems to think people have forgotten that they tried to buy off top teams from the national organizations into a European super league.
In effect they did it anyway with CL.
Given this is a worldwide institution dealing with this, I think you are both casting the new too small.
Famously before either the US or Western world, these values were never celebrated.
Market Strategists are going to study this one. It’s a potential inflection point. Cant think of any other event or entity as globally galvanizing that football.
Hearing you say this is like hearing someone say that the United Nations is a commercial failure.
Its purpose is to regulate and administer international football on behalf of its member associations, enforce compliance with its regulations, organise international competitions to relieve the member associations of the hassle, administer anti-doping programmes and related integrity measures (lol), and, through its membership of IFAB, help determine and promote the consistent application of the Laws of the Game worldwide. Its revenues only exist to support those functions.
Is there a need for it to have profit motive? Would the world be better if it decided it should have one? I don't see how the answer could be yes to either question.
The mention of guardrails is a little Onion-esque given the organisation and people in question
It's a non-profit. So who cares? Why is more money automatically good?
> making less than the American/Canadian hockey league is a commercial failure
They aren't alike. The NHL doesn't happen once every 4 years.
Besides, your tally of sports incomes is wrong since you didn't include UEFA revenue, which is also football money, in the count.
Do you not understand that FIFA and UEFA are a small component of the actual revenue of football? They are not all of football. This is not complicated.
Fortunately the English top division alone makes a similar amount to NHL (from a quarter of the matches) and the English second tier makes a similar amount to the Super Bowl[1], which is why football's governing body doesn't particularly need lessons on how to commercialize stuff from people in the United States who probably also don't understand football's financial centre of gravity, but will happily buy commercialization rights for a quadrennial tournament if sold to them in a backroom deal at a sufficiently low price...
[1]yes, I know the Super Bowl is only the one game. But if you can compare a 1400 game annual league to a 104 game quadrennial tournament, then I can compare an entire season to a single big game :D)...
Soccer leagues make a total of about 5-6x as much as the NHL. The Premier League alone makes 25% more than the NHL.
Not everything has to have the teeth of capitalism continually biting down harder and harder. Plateaus are ok (and this is nowhere near a plateau)
> Soccer is by far the most popular sport on the planet, the fact that it makes a lot less money than hockey is insane.
Soccer makes much much more money than the NHL, it just doesn't all go to FIFA because the vast majority of matches are not organized by FIFA.
The premier league alone makes more than the NHL and that's just one of the european countries. La ligua, bundesliga also each make close to what the NHL makes with much smaller populations.
The fair comparison to FIFA is the IIHF. They make $35M for the hockey world championships vs 15B for the football world cup, you are slightly off, a rounding error.
FIFA holds one significant money-making tournament for a month every 4 years (all due respect to the Women's World Cup in terms of prestige, but its revenue is a small fraction of the Men's World Cup). The NHL runs 6 months a year annually.
But just to add on for comparison, the NHL has 1312 regular season games. Plus 4 rounds of best-of-7 playoff series with 16 teams making the playoffs. Let's say an average of 5.75 games per round, that's 86 playoff games bringing us to ~1400 games per year.
Over 4 years, that's 5600 games. The FIFA World Cup had 104 games this year. It's actually pretty impressive that the WC can even make 40% while hosting < 2% of the games that the NHL has. Or put another way, 1 WC game is equivalent to 54 NHL games - 2/3 of one team's full regular season.
A single NBA season has over 1200 games - over 12 times as many games as the most recent World Cup (104). And that was already the largest-ever WC. Does the NBA have 12x the revenue of the WC?
> Even the World Cup brings less revenue than one season of the NBA
This isn't even true btw. The 2026 WC made $15b and the 2025-26 NBA season made $14.3 billion. [1][2]
Most of the WC's participating teams represent places poorer than the places NBA teams hail from.
You can't run the World Cup like the NBA. That's not how the sport works.
1. https://www.sportico.com/leagues/basketball/2025/nba-revenue...
2. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2026/jul/18/fifa-record...
It's one of the only things left whose purpose is not just to make as much money as possible.
Plus there is advertising all over the players' clothing, the pitch, the pitchside hoardings etc. There is high rent advertising in every break. Even more so since theze silly hydration breaks.
It just sucks that everything good and sacred in the world (soccer and everything else) is being squeezed and shittified for profit. So if FIFA is prevented from converting from a non-profit with the nominal purpose of being a steward of the game for its own stake into a fully explicit for-profit capitalistic enterprise, then I'll take the victory. Even if the current system is far from perfect.
FIFA is (1) on paper, not there to make money, but (2) in reality, obscenely corrupt.
Worldwide, association football makes more than all other sports you referenced, combined.
I hope this is UEFA taking a principled stand, but maybe there's some weird scheme going on, let's see what happens next.
>FIFA currently makes 40% of what the NHL makes,
That's entirely irrelevant, if FIFA even makes zero - most of the money is in the local leagues. FIFA is just there for the world cup
Maybe fans would prefer that it stayed that way.. making just enough money to keep the sport going, without the profit motive.
I don't care what american billionaires make with nhl/nfl/..., hands fucking off of football.
It looks like this world cup may have introduced shirt sponsorship to US and Canadian sports. Soon their shirts will resemble Formula One drivers'. In return, association football will keep hydration breaks etc.
The NFL makes much less money than nVidia The world has gone mad! That's just insane.
When Blatter was kicked out of FIFA for corruption, the USA provided a legal venue for the investigation. Between Infantino and Trump you would think that is off the table.
Expect some kind of back door deal.